Since we were crowding the battleship weaponry thread with this stuff and it didnt exactly fit the topic, I made this to continue that conversation in a bit more detail.
First off, my personal opinion on how each combat ship class should be balanced in relation to the others:
(Note: For simplification, the "cruisers" category includes cruisers and destroyers, while the "battleship" category includes battlecruisers and carriers)
Light Fighters Good Against:
Bombers, Heavy Fighters, Very Heavy Fighters Bad Against:
Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships
-Light fighters are supposed to be the most manuverable (and quickest, though that's not something we can change here) combat ships on the market. Their manuverability should be key in fighting other small ships (hf's/vhf's/bombers) but they lack the necessary firepower to take on anything larger, and should probably have a tough time taking out a bomber.
Heavy Fighters Good Against:
Very Heavy Fighters, Bombers Bad Against:[/b]
Light Fighters, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships
-Heavy Fighters are the middle-of-the-road for the fighter classes. They should still be able to out-manuever VHF's and bombers, but lack the firepower to go up against capships, and lack the agility to combat light fighters.
Very Heavy Fighters (includes super heavy fighters)
[u]Good Against:
Heavy Fighters, Bombers Bad Against:
Light Fighters, Gunboats, Cruisers, Battleships
-You'll notice that both heavy fighters and VHF's are listed as being good against one another. Basically, they're equal - the HF's out-turn VHF's, but the VHF's have more firepower and shielding, and thus require fewer connecting hits to destroy the weaker heavy fighters. Basically, the primary use of VHF's should be as anti-bomber craft, perfect for escorting capships.
Bombers Good Against:
Cruisers, Battleships Bad Against:
Light Fighters, Heavy Fighters, Very Heavy Fighters, Gunboats
-Bombers should primarily be used against larger capships. I listed they were bad against gunboats, and that's what I believe should hold true - gunboats should be able to rather easily out-manuever the heavy hitting torpedoes/cannons used by bombers, rendering their primary capship killing weapons useless. Fighters of all types should out-manuever bombers, however, making them exceedingly weak against those ships without escort.
Gunboats Good Against:
Light Fighters, Heavy Fighters, Very Heavy Fighters, Bombers Bad Against:[/b]
Cruisers, Battleships
-The way I see things, gunboats should be anti-fighter/bomber escorts for larger capships. They should only be slightly less manuverable than bombers, but have access to heavy anti-fighter weaponry (further detailed in the weaponry section below) and be manuverable enough to keep enemy fighters in their view most of the time. Rather than trying to use turret view to fight, gunboats should be flying like larger, slower fighter craft - turning to point at the enemy rather than flying in a straight line. Their agility is what allows them to survive. Likewise, they should be able to dodge fire from heavier ships effectively, but should lack the firepower to destroy those ships.
Cruisers
[u]Good Against:
Cruisers, Battleships Bad Against
Bombers
-Cruisers are, like HF's, the middle of the road for capships. They should have much more firepower and shielding than gunboats, but much less than battleships. Essentially, I see cruisers operating as command ships in smaller engagements - taking the place of a battleship when fighting in asteroid/scrap fields is required, or when using a battleship would be excessive force or not cost effective.
Battleships Good Against:
Cruisers, Battleships Bad Against:
Bombers, Cruisers
-Battleships are the largest, and therefor least manuverable, ships in space. They should primarily have long range, hard-hitting weaponry useful against other large ships (cruisers/battleships), but should be vulnerable when smaller, more agile enemies close distance - primarily bombers, as fighters/gunboats wouldnt have the firepower to take out a battleship. They're listed as both good and bad against cruisers primarily because a well flown cruiser would be able to get in close where less of the battleship's weapons are effective, but at any ranged engagement the battleship would logically rip a cruiser apart.
1. First off, weapons need to be re-done. Right now there are all sorts of capship weapons out there, and I honestly think they should be deleted and replaced with more limited options to emphasize these balance cahgnes. Weapon details are explained further below, before I get to them...
2. Manuverability changes need to be made as follows: Battleships - All battleships should have their turn rates slightly reduced from what they are now.
Cruisers - Also need to have their manuverability slightly reduced.
Gunboats - Most gunboats should have manuverability slightly increased to allow them to more easily turn and aim at the smaller fighter/bomber craft they're meant to be effective against.
Bombers - Most bombers need their turn rate reduced slightly, some need it reduced drastically (catamarans). No bomber should be able to out-turn any available VHF of SHF, but bombers should be slightly more manuverable than gunboats.
VHF's / SHF's - Pretty good as they are now.
HF's - slight agility improvement, but should still remain far less manuverable than LF's.
Basically, take all the current capship weapons in the game and scrap them. Each capship type should be focused on a very specific selection of weaponry. Differences in faction (i.e. outcast turrets, order turrets, corsair turrets) can be kept for visual differentiation, but stats should be very similar among all of the weapons in each type, if not identical. For gameplay purposes, NPC ships and bases would retain their default loadouts and weapon types - simply make those weapon types non-purchaseable.
Battleship Turrets
Battleship Primary Turrets
-Very long range (4000-5000 Meters)
-Low Refire Rate (1.0-2.0 max)
-Very High Damage (8000-12000 per shot)
-Medium Travel Speed (1500 m/s or so)
Primary turrets would be the main weapon on battleships, very useful against other large ships at extended ranges. With the travel speed, they would be easily avoidable by any craft smaller than a cruiser/destroyer.
Battleship Secondary Turrets
-Long Range (3000-4000 meters)
-Medium Refire Rate (2.0-4.0)
-Medium Damage (5000-8000 per shot)
-Medium Travel Speed (1500 m/s or so)
Secondary turrets would be used against targets attempting to close distance. They've got shorter range than primary turrets, but fire faster and do more relative damage - still fairly easy to dodge for small craft though. The primary difficulty in fighting battleships should be to get past the effective firing range of the secondary turrets without getting torn apart.
Battleship Point-Defense Turrets
-Very Short Range (500-800 meters)
-Fast Refire Rate (8.33-10.00, think machine gun)
-Low Damage (400-500 per shot)
-Very Fast Travel Speed (around 5000 m/s)
Point defense turrets are only dangerous when the target is at extremely close ranges. These keep the fighters/bombers from exploiting blind spots on the battleship, but they take up valuable hardpoints for that task and are ineffective against anything larger than a bomber.
Cruiser Turrets
Basically, a copy of the battleship turrets but with less energy requirements, damage, and range. Cruisers/destroyers are really nothing but scaled down Battleships. One exception here though:
Destroyer Torpedo Turret
-Medium Range (2500-3000 meters)
-Low Refire Rate (less than 1.0)
-High Damage (20,000 or so per shot)
-Medium Explosion Radius (100m or so)
-Low Travel Speed (80 m/s)
-Low Turn Rate (around what bomber torpedoes have right now, should be ineffective against fighters).
This would be the 'unique' weapon for cruisers, primarily effective against other cruisers and battleships. As a torpedo / explosive weapon, it could strip weapons and systems off of enemy capships. The primary intent here is to re-create the use of WW2 destroyers - which were equipped with torpedoes that could be effectively used against much larger enemy ships, assuming the destroyer could get within distance and hit the enemy.
Gunboat Turrets
Gunboats would have no weapons effective against larger capships, their primary role here is as anti-fighter/bomber escorts for larger capships, as a more expensive but more effective alternative to using wings of fighters.
Gunboat Primary Turrets
-Low-Medium Range (around 1000 meters)
-Very High Refire Rate (10.00-16+, again, it's intended to be a machinegun-like weapon)
-Low Damage (150-300 per shot, but at such a high refire rate it would have very good sustained DPS)
-Very high travel speed (4000-5000 m/s, prevents the fighters they hunt from dodging effectively)
These would be the main weapons for gunboats, and would act similarly to the point defense turrets for battleships/cruisers. The key here is the high projectile speed of the weapon, which basically removes the ability of a fighter craft to dodge the incoming attacks. The downside is the weapon's short range, and low damage output against larger ships.
Gunboat Missile Turrets
The other weapon available to gunboats, they'd be pretty similar to the current gunboat missile turrets (which already prove effective). They'd likely be less effective against fighters than the primary turret listed above, but would have the advantage of dealing component damage to larger ships that had their shields brought down, giving the gunboats some slight use against larger ships.
Some specialized weapons could be added in to give advantages or perks to specific factions, but i really think these should be the basis for all capship weapons. It gives each ship type a very specific role, and forces each type to rely on others when going up against certain opponents. A gunboat would (and should) be useless against cruisers/battleships - but if that gunboat paired up with a few bombers, the gunboat could effectively take out the cruiser/bb's fighter escorts and allow the bombers to bring the larger ships down.
if BS turret has such high damage.....it should have 0.5 re-firerate max..and the ship hull need seriously increase......(i mean the primary...secondary about 3 at max.....and lower damage....
At around 2:20 in that video is a ship using 'machine guns' - using that weapon animation/effect for the point defense/gunboat primary turrets would be awesome :D
yes......the point defence is good..high refire..short range....low damage...good idea...i can totally agree with that..but your BS turret's damage/shot is too high compare to its re-fire rate.....and BS main guns should have slow re-firerate....but high damage per shot....and the shell speed is very fast..long range....but because the turret is so powerful....so it turns slow..(do you know Iowa Battleship's main Battery need like 86 man to operate? and it only turns 12 degree/second?)
' Wrote:yes......the point defence is good..high refire..short range....low damage...good idea...i can totally agree with that..but your BS turret's damage/shot is too high compare to its re-fire rate.....and BS main guns should have slow re-firerate....but high damage per shot....and the shell speed is very fast..long range....but because the turret is so powerful....so it turns slow..(do you know Iowa Battleship's main Battery need like 86 man to operate? and it only turns 12 degree/second?)
um, that's exactly how the primary battleship turret is listed... Long range, low refire, high damage, medium travel speed.
If the travel speed were any higher, it would be too difficult for smaller craft to dodge the shots. The damage may need some tuning down, but not by much.
I'd have to agree with you on almost every single point. I think that the gunboat primaries should be more of a 5.88 refire, as I think that that is actually a more effective refire in terms of damage (and looks cooler), but 8.33 is fine as well. Not 10.00, I don't think, that's just a bit too fast. 8.33 is fast enough, in my opinion, and you have to remember that lots of high refire weapons at once lead to lag problems, so I'd say that 8.33 should be the upper limit on refire rates.
For damage on gunboats, if it's 5.88, then I'd say 550-600 damage per shot. For 8.33, then maybe about 400 damage per shot?
Capship hulls need a definite boost (with the possible exception of gunboats), and if so, then the shields need a major nerf.
As for gunboat range... say 1400m for the primaries?
yea, i was thinking more along the lines of the chainguns we've got, but I suppose 5.88 - 8.33 would be fast enough, the primary thing that it needs is the extremely high projectile speed to limit the target's dodging.
Most fighter weapons are limited to about 800 meters range, so I didnt want to go all that high with the gunboat turrets, but 1400 would be ok I think.
' Wrote:um, that's exactly how the primary battleship turret is listed... Long range, low refire, high damage, medium travel speed.
If the travel speed were any higher, it would be too difficult for smaller craft to dodge the shots. The damage may need some tuning down, but not by much.
not low enough......1.0-2.0 is too fast for a such powerful gun...2.0 re-fire rate is 2 shot per second...that refire rate destroyer class gun can't even have that fast in RL....Destroyer class ship in RL their gun fire at about 45 RPM (rounds per minute)..that's 0.75 re-fire rate for a Destroyer class ship in modern days.....think about Battleshipi....should have much lower RPM....
PS: 2.0 re-firerate is 120 RPM..that's very fast...
' Wrote:not low enough......1.0-2.0 is too fast for a such powerful gun...2.0 re-fire rate is 2 shot per second...that refire rate destroyer class gun can't even have that fast in RL....Destroyer class ship in RL their gun fire at about 45 RPM (rounds per minute)..that's 0.75 re-fire rate for a Destroyer class ship in modern days.....think about Battleshipi....should have much lower RPM....
PS: 2.0 re-firerate is 120 RPM..that's very fast...
It's a laser that moves slower than light, so I think we can take some liberties about weapons refire.
' Wrote:not low enough......1.0-2.0 is too fast for a such powerful gun...2.0 re-fire rate is 2 shot per second...that refire rate destroyer class gun can't even have that fast in RL....Destroyer class ship in RL their gun fire at about 45 RPM (rounds per minute)..that's 0.75 re-fire rate for a Destroyer class ship in modern days.....think about Battleshipi....should have much lower RPM....
PS: 2.0 re-firerate is 120 RPM..that's very fast...
this is the future, we're in space, we use docking rings to safely crash into planets, and we're firing laserguns.
As long as the DPS is balanced, I think it's ok to have 120 RPM fire rate from a battleship turret.
Remember, we're not loading shells here, we're charging energy banks and firing lasers.
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