[FLHook] Automated Bounty Plugin

[Laz]

Honestly, my biggest criticism with any bounty system in this game, or any game, that allows respawning is the fact a smart target could have a friend kill them, launder the money, and then give the money back to the target. Essentially 'Free money'.

I considered that when creating the plugin. By default, the bounty amount is subtracted from the issuer in advance - minus two million processing fee. This money is then gone and inaccessible until either the amount bounty is claimed or it expires. The money paid out is equal to the bounty set, so the only reduction is from the initial two mill extra for setting the bounty. All money is, as it were, kept within the economy. Nothing is created from thin air.

This is effectively done to simulate the bounty system of the forums, but with added ease.

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[Mr.Fabulous]

... By default, the bounty amount is subtracted from the issuer in advance - minus two million processing fee. This money is then gone and inaccessible until either the amount bounty is claimed or it expires. The money paid out is equal to the bounty set, so the only reduction is from the initial two mill extra for setting the bounty. All money is, as it were, kept within the economy. Nothing is created from thin air.

This is effectively done to simulate the bounty system of the forums, but with added ease.

I don't think th'art quite understanding what I've been meaning. Here's one scenario:

1. owner submits bounty, target is bountied
2. target receives bounty notification / knows they're being bountied, asks a friend to create bounty-hunter character
3. friend creates char, posts to offer to claim bounty, bounty claim is accepted
4. friend and target go to conn/remote part of Sirius
5. friend shoots target without any struggle (but makes it look like it was through fancy screenshots), target pops, bounty is done
6. friend posts link to bounty owner for confirmed kill, bounty is paid
7. friend divides profit between target and himself
8. ???
9. broken, exploited bounty system that only benefits the targets and owners are giving away money needlessly

EDIT: In fact... now that I think about it, any form of "PLAYER-BASED" bounty system could be used as an advanced form of money laundering. Details I could give, but not in the mood right now to explain such unless thou asks.

This is why yours-truly proposed another alternative to the /bounty command, which I'll detail in the spoiler below:

Proposed bounty system

Honestly, my biggest criticism with any bounty system in this game, or any game, that allows respawning is the fact a smart target could have a friend kill them, launder the money, and then give the money back to the target. Essentially 'Free money'.

This is very common in games such as 'EVE', where 'tis quite inconvenient to lose one's ships, but bounty hunting is basically non-existant, and only serves to either inflate the target's massive ego, or give them free money by having friends kill the target.

What WOULD be incredible to have is a /bounty system that makes random BHG NPC's spawn around the target, and focus on ONLY that target, like the /drone command does. The higher the bounty, the more powerful (and possibly the more frequent) the spawns, ranging from a flight of fighters to even flocks of battleships and CDing cruisers around a 1 Billion bounty target.

And get this... the BHG NPC's will NEVER Stop, and can spawn from almost anywhere they'd logically be able to reach (so Heavy Nomad/Guard/Pirate systems are somewhat safe).

Now THAT would truly serve the purpose of inconvenience. And the only way for the target to lose the bounty is either of three options:

1. get killed by those NPCs a number of times
2. go to a bar and type /bounty bribe to pay a fraction of the bounty
3. have the bounty owner retire the bounty order

The money DOESN'T GO TO ANYONE, and disappears into the oblivions once the bounty's been concluded.

But 'tis just my 2cents.

[Sand_Spider]

Well I mean, even with the current forum-based bounty system, you could technically have a friend make a bounty hunting character to "claim" a bounty that's been posted on you in order to split the profits.

Technically, doing so could be considered a form of cheating, as both the hunter and hunted just conspired to basically steal money from the poster of the original bounty. At the very least, the players involved could certainly be sanctioned for breaking RP, as it would be incredibly ooRP 99% of the time for a pirate to willingly allow a hunter to destroy their ship.

To truly avoid this, we would likely have to just remove the current bounty hunting system entirely.

Regarding the proposed bounty system, it's an interesting concept. But part of placing a bounty in the first place is (for many) the desire to see that certain someone's name Blue'd as a form of vengeful justice. NPCs harrying a target wouldn't be the same, as it would be difficult server-wide what the player was killed by (Was it the BHG NPCs, or some random military gunboat/cruiser/battleship spawn?).

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[Thyrzul]

Could you make an equivalent of /bounty new for Trade Events so that those could be opened up for the greater public without requiring initiation by Admins?

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[Laz]

. . .

. . .

It is not something I considered, but as @Sand_Spider pointed out currently, this is exactly the same as the forum based equivalent. Just like the forums, you cannot be anonymous when claiming these as your name is logged when you claim them. It would be covered under rule 5.6. I also think anything concerning NPCs is a bad idea for a number of reasons. The main one, for me, is that NPCs have no place in Discovery and do not add to the core concept that Discovery is based around. Players and RP. The second biggest thing is that FLHook NPCs cause large amounts of lag and to mass create them a lot of times would cause issues.

Could you make an equivalent of /bounty new for Trade Events so that those could be opened up for the greater public without requiring initiation by Admins?

Definitely! Will add it to one of the plugins I am developing.

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[Omicron]

How does it fit within Discovery's pvp rules? What about people who dont know yet they've been bountied? How do we make it clear that pvp engagement was valid without spamming everyone's screen with another useless announcment?

I am not against such a plugin, far from it. I am afraid that it might not be fully effective within freelancer server with the limitations I just read.

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[Mr.Fabulous]

Technically, doing so could be considered a form of cheating, as both the hunter and hunted just conspired to basically steal money from the poster of the original bounty. At the very least, the players involved could certainly be sanctioned for breaking RP, as it would be incredibly ooRP 99% of the time for a pirate to willingly allow a hunter to destroy their ship.

It would be covered under rule 5.6--

UGH, rules-lawyering! The very bane that keeps the few admins we have stressed over politics and swamped with hundreds of insignificant, whiney 'OH PLZ SANCSHUN HEM HE DID A BAD OR ELSE I LEAV'.

Unless we had an entire department of admins (I'm talking about at least 50 admins) to take care of every sanction that comes their way, we cannot and SHOULD NOT rely on the rules to save us. 'Tis not only naive-thinking, but also allows cunning psychopaths to exploit the system.

I've seen Admins lose their SHIT over the constant barrage of drama-inducing sanctions and rules-lawyering. I don't want to see people like kingvaliantdavid, treehugger, JihadJoe, and the like, to ever experience such needless torrents of shit ever again.

We need a /bounty system that can take care of and police itself, only needing Admin intervention at the strangest and most exotic of circumstances.

I also think anything concerning NPCs is a bad idea for a number of reasons. The main one, for me, is that NPCs have no place in Discovery and do not add to the core concept that Discovery is based around. Players and RP. The second biggest thing is that FLHook NPCs cause large amounts of lag and to mass create them a lot of times would cause issues.

Th'ast a good point about the second thing.

But the first thing? Ehhhhh, maaaaaybe (and only maybe, like 30% success rate) when 'twas 4.85, and we had almost 200+ players to make it that NPC's didn't have to be a thing. Thing is, the only difference with the current forums-based bounty system and this console-based bounty system is that the transactions are processed faster, but it doesn't mean they'll be managed any better.

Maybe if we had:

> 500+ players on LOW hours
> an entire department of Admins to cater to every sanction
> at least 3 active, 10+ active player bounty hunter factions, official/unofficial

THEN this new bounty system might work. But even back in 4.85 where:

> 200+ players on HIGH hours
> only a handful of admins that not only handled important administrative/anti-cheat/anti-DDOS issues, but also the countless sanctions that came their way, making the task of being an admin less of a pleasant hobby and more of an... 'unpleasant' (to put it nicely) job
> 3 semi-active bounty hunter factions that were more focused on expanding their influence rather than, idk, actually collecting bounties

'Twas hard to make the forums-based bounty system work... 'Twas a nightmare. I even had a friend who could easily exploit the bounty system if he so wanted to (but didn't because 'twasn't really worth it, in his words).

As I mentioned earlier, 'tis not only quite naive-thinking to believe the player-based bounty system would be able to police itself (at least, without causing massive amounts of IRL drama)...

... but focusing on only the players and with the philosophy of NPC's not at all belonging to Discovery is ignoring the PvE aspect of the game. Focusing entirely on the 'players' and the 'player interaction' when we neither have the numbers nor the content/ability to back up such numbers is asking for not only trouble, but also backwards-thinking.

[Laz]

How does it fit within Discovery's pvp rules?

That is up to the admins to decide. Normal rules would apply, unless stated otherwise I suppose.

What about people who dont know yet they've been bountied?

By default, their is a notification whenever someone sets a bounty and also a specific message to the person bountied whenever they login. A small notice saying something along the lines of "hey buddy, you got a bounty on that head".

How do we make it clear that pvp engagement was valid without spamming everyone's screen with another useless announcment?

Again, part of the configuration. It can be changed so only people in the system are informed, or only the killer and their target. That and everything is logged, as I mentioned prior. In the event something does go awry, there is still evidence to prove innocent or guilty.

. . .

I understand what you're getting at, but like it or the rules are integral to how Discovery runs. The plugin replicates the current forum based bounty system as closely as possible, and a lot of the problems you'll notice cross over. If you don't want to have Freelancers putting up bounties (which is what I think you're getting at as one of your points) then you simply specify in the config file that Freelancers cannot post bounties, and huzzah, they can't.

I personally find your excessive exaggeration unhelpful when it comes to establishing your point, but that's by the by. For the sake of clarification and understanding, I'll explain my thoughts behind my opinion on NPCs (from a concept perspective, not technical (what can we do with them)). I personally don't see any value of NPCs within Discovery, at least outside of missions. I believe that this community is player/RP driven and NPCs only act is some side annoyance that can actively get in the way at times. A good example of this is when an NPC is shotting you because of game mechanics (rep) and then the player on the other side addresses that and shoots you for it. (Append so many times over the years).

Thing is, the only difference with the current forums-based bounty system and this console-based bounty system is that the transactions are processed faster, but it doesn't mean they'll be managed any better.

I agree with this. This is very similar to what @Sand_Spider said, and the current system is just as flawed as this plugin is, when it comes down to mechanics. If the Bounty system gets a rework, I have no issue in updating the plugin to follow suit - and even if I couldn't, for whatever reason, I commented all my code so it should be rather easy for any replacement to update in my stead.

As I mentioned earlier, 'tis not only quite naive-thinking to believe the player-based bounty system would be able to police itself (at least, without causing massive amounts of IRL drama)...

You're right here as well. But you know what? So does literally every thing else in this game. You think of something in Disco and it's probably caused drama at some point. It's not the game, it's the community. (Just to mention for the sake of technicalities: It wouldn't be IRL drama, just the regular toxic Internet variety. The Best Kind.)

Few things to end. I have no idea what you are talking about with you refer to "30% success rate". Your 'stats' are blown way out proportion (as if I didn't already mention) to illustrate your point, but ultimately have no positive impact on my understanding of what your suggestion actually is. You mention how back in 4.85 we had '3 semi-active bounty hunter factions' but up until last month, we had three very active bounty hunting factions.

At the end of the day you have your opinion, I have mine. I asked for you, as a member of the community, to share it, and you obliged. I thank you for that. I do think you would benefit from being less abarisive when voicing your opinion, as it can get in the way of the actual point you are trying to make (good example would be your exaggerations). Anyway, I will respectfully disagree with what you have said. At the end of the day, the system brings about no harm in being tested.

P.S. Why constantly use the word twas

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[A.B.]

I wouldn't mind the logical bountying system that also concerns NPCs, due to the fact not all players are good in PVP yet would like to have something from killing NPCs as well.

Or, simply change the prices for all pilot prices three/four fold.

It wouldn't make trading worse (you'd need a lot of time to fill your 800 cargo bay with pilot commodities), but would make PVE a bit more fun to the people who aren't really interested into doing cap-oriented missions or forced to fly bombers and "cheat" with Novas to killing group of high-level NPCs.

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[Stefan]

...

I have to back this.

We deal with a game that was not made for what we are trying to achieve with plugins. Not only all of this is voluntary work it is also how the community has gotten used to working. I don't truly see the need to be as worried, specially considering we can restrict the plugin for specific IDs, which extend to factions and what not.

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