Wyvern and Wraith

[Chuba]

Nippon steel folded 10 thousand times over to just make one plate.

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[Durandal]

You're missing the huge reaction time differential. The wraith responds to the pilot much quicker than the Wyvern, and the two degree higher turn rate is nothing to laugh at. I'd personally rather fly a wraith.

[Wesker]

Do you actually want to be taken seriously? If you do, then it might be time to stop saying things like this.

68 turn, which matches most heavy dueling VHFs in this mod. 5 guns, which means you sacrafice dps in both duels and groups on the basis of efficiency assuming you can still hit anything. All the mass is centered in a brick like shape in the center, meaning its much simpler to hit than the wyvern ever was. More importantly, its simpler to hit than any house VHF.

Light armor, garbage response.

Weather or not you take me seriously is up to you, just letting you know the reality of it.

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[Sanctions]

So you're implying that everything is ok and nothing needs to be changed?

[Enkidu]

The answer is obviously Arbeiters. Kaiser-endorsed-wealthfare-state-produced five hundred year old tech strapped on to an eagle over skirt wearing prisses and wierd federal retrofits of Valkyries. Everytime, anytime.

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THE SYNDIC LEAGUES
(A co-operative of Rheinland's Shipping Unions, retired from a life of piracy.)

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[Reeves]

Do you actually want to be taken seriously? If you do, then it might be time to stop saying things like this.

68 turn, which matches most heavy dueling VHFs in this mod. 5 guns, which means you sacrafice dps in both duels and groups on the basis of efficiency assuming you can still hit anything. All the mass is centered in a brick like shape in the center, meaning its much simpler to hit than the wyvern ever was. More importantly, its simpler to hit than any house VHF.

Light armor, garbage response.

Weather or not you take me seriously is up to you, just letting you know the reality of it.

Having trouble hitting the guardian and the avenger was never something I'd ever heard, I'm not sure where you're pulling these subjective statements from. Back when the wraith had 70 turn rate hitting it almost felt like a futile pursuit if its shields were down. Yes, mass is centralised but this mass doesn't contrast the way it does on some other agile VHFs like the prosecutor.

The only time a wraith is vulnerable is if you can hit it from the side. Considering how nimble it can be, putting yourself in such a position is easier said than done.

I almost feel pity for the people that must have struggled dueling the wraith back when it had a great turn rate and 6 guns. It's worth looking at this objectively rather than just descending into a downright opinionated form of debating the shortcomings of a ship.

The wraith was never and is not an inadequate ship.

[Antonio]

Do you actually want to be taken seriously? If you do, then it might be time to stop saying things like this.

68 turn, which matches most heavy dueling VHFs in this mod. 5 guns, which means you sacrafice dps in both duels and groups on the basis of efficiency assuming you can still hit anything. All the mass is centered in a brick like shape in the center, meaning its much simpler to hit than the wyvern ever was. More importantly, its simpler to hit than any house VHF.

Light armor, garbage response.

Weather or not you take me seriously is up to you, just letting you know the reality of it.

69 turn, which is considerably above average. You don't sacrifice DPS in groupfights because 5 guns drain your core, in groupfights the 5 guns matter very little. Once your core reaches 0 (and it will, because as mentioned 100 times already 5 guns drain your core (3 hullbusters drain even a 15k core)), it's all about core regen where Wraith shines over the Wyvern.

In this comparison specifically you conveniently missed that the Wraith has better turn rate (whole 2 degrees), better responsiveness (0.2 which is also a lot) and better core (always a big upgrade) all while saying Wraith has nothing over the Wyvern. That simply isn't true, and if you say those 3 things don't matter then I'll hold your opinion of even less value. Wraith isn't and never was a brick, perhaps the people you fight aren't good enough so you formed a false opinion (or just forming it from regenless ammoless duels in Conn, something Wraith won't be good at because of paper hull and 5 guns). I never had a problem dodging in a Wraith. Is the Wyvern better because of the extra gun? Debatable. The only thing it needs is its shield bubble fixed because it was a way to nerf it while it had 6 guns and 72 turn, and we know how overpowered that ship was. Nerfing those 2 stats that are less important than stuff like core and responsiveness for groupfights specifically means it's still a great groupfighting ship.

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SNAC Montage Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Thruster SNAC

[Wesker]

Having trouble hitting the guardian and the avenger was never something I'd ever heard, I'm not sure where you're pulling these subjective statements from.

Since when does "easier to hit" on one ship translate to "struggle hitting" on another?

Back when the wraith had 70 turn rate hitting it almost felt like a futile pursuit if its shields were down. Yes, mass is centralised but this mass doesn't contrast the way it does on some other agile VHFs like the prosecutor.

Yes it certianly does, it doesn't do it to the same extent since there's less volume overall, but it's still simple as hell to shoot at. Aglie VHFs in this mod -when shot properly- are simpler to take down in a real duel or group fight than others that arent. There are certain exceptions, like say the Arbiter, or sichel that are simpler to hit than agile VHFs. But if I took a wraith all around and compared its simplicity to hit in comparison to a slower VHF like the templar in any situation (sheildrun or duel) the templar would out compete the wraith any day of the week.

This can be said with pretty much a ton of other VHFs. The only time agility, or turn rate comes in handy is /potentially/ in a duel. That can be solved with a simple CD. The wraith has only ever been able to outcompete when it early turns, and if by some miracle you allow any ship at all to early turn against you out of conn you're doing something terribly wrong.

The only time a wraith is vulnerable is if you can hit it from the side. Considering how nimble it can be, putting yourself in such a position is easier said than done.

Blocky center mass is exposed from the top, bottom, side, back. It's a block, it's simple to hit from any angle and any direction, there's no strong point the ship has to use to it's advantage when dodging/running or fighting up front. If you struggle to hit the ship, especially with higher velocity guns - you're doing something wrong.

I almost feel pity for the people that must have struggled dueling the wraith back when it had a great turn rate and 6 guns. It's worth looking at this objectively rather than just descending into a downright opinionated form of debating the shortcomings of a ship.

I pity them too, their aim must've been terrible. They also probably didn't know how to CD.

Alternatively, we could we re-amp the ship's turn rate for the slight hope of it /maybe/ being decent again. Or just make it's armor stronger to compensate for it's blocky shape.

The wraith was never and is not an inadequate ship.

It was adequate back when it had 6 guns, yea. Now? I'd take a wyvern any day of the week.

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[Wesker]

69 turn, which is considerably above average. You don't sacrifice DPS in groupfights because 5 guns drain your core, in groupfights the 5 guns matter very little. Once your core reaches 0 (and it will, because as mentioned 100 times already 5 guns drain your core (3 hullbusters drain even a 15k core)), it's all about core regen where Wraith shines over the Wyvern.

Assuming you nail every shot with 100% consistency you'll match the damage ratio yes, but realistically if you put someone with 3 hullbusters up someone's ass and someone with 4. Both players will (if they use their brains which is prolly where you might get me in this) take picky shots to the most damage and conserve core anyways rather than just mindlessly shooting. This would amount to the player with 4 taking the win any day of the week.

In this comparison specifically you conveniently missed that the Wraith has better turn rate (whole 2 degrees), better responsiveness (0.2 which is also a lot) and better core (always a big upgrade) all while saying Wraith has nothing over the Wyvern.

Ok, it has a better responsiveness. That might not make up for the fact that the wraith still has 5 guns (which in a duel will always amount to less damage output unless you're bad), still has a more blocky shape which is simpler to hit, still has less armor. As far as turn rate goes, that's pretty much negated unless you're dumb enough to allow someone to early turn against you. I was wrong, it has a faster turn rate and better responsiveness than the wyvern, yes, does that amount to it being better? Not at all.

That simply isn't true, and if you say those 3 things don't matter then I'll hold your opinion of even less value. Wraith isn't and never was a brick, perhaps the people you fight aren't good enough so you formed a false opinion (or just forming it from regenless ammoless duels in Conn, something Wraith won't be good at because of paper hull and 5 guns).

https://discoverygc.com/wiki/images/b/ba/Rh_elite.png

Tiny block in the front, giant block in the center, thick pancake at the rear.

Looking at it from any other direction and it might as well be a smaller bismarck. Idk, I'm only an average pvper so maybe they were all bad. I've never drawn my opinion all around on ships from regenless duels in conn. If we're going off that opinion, the wraith is actually one of the better ships since it can get away with sliding easier.

I never had a problem dodging in a Wraith. Is the Wyvern better because of the extra gun? Debatable. The only thing it needs is its shield bubble fixed because it was a way to nerf it while it had 6 guns and 72 turn, and we know how overpowered that ship was.

Wouldn't argue it was horribly overpowered. The Marlin had the same stats (actually better) and the only thing that really made it so deadly was it's armor. In comparison to the wraith the Marlin is about the same in terms of simplicity to shoot. The marlin pre-nerf was actually better than the old 72 6 gunner wraith imo.

Nerfing those 2 stats that are less important than stuff like core and responsiveness for groupfights specifically means it's still a great groupfighting ship.

It's sketchy as hell to fight in groups with, and I'd give it less points for its dodging capabilites for the reasons highlighted above. It's core and guns enable it to work with shotguns and shotguns alone. Then again, shotguns are a last resort for any ship not good enough for other guns.

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[Reeves]

It was adequate back when it had 6 guns, yea. Now? I'd take a wyvern any day of the week.

If that's all this boils down to then fly a Wyvern. I've never felt like having 5 guns on the wraith was something that brought it down, in fact the only thing that used to throw me off was how odd the turret looked cosmetically.

Any fight I'd ever been in with the wraith was always enjoyable, I never felt like I was being let down by the ship. I'm not sure where you developed this opinion about the wraith being horrible and having no strengths but I can only keep voicing my disagreement with that 'fact'.

Just like the Prosecutor doesn't need a 7th gun, because that was going too far. The wraith does not need a 6th gun because that rather obviously went too far given the advantages it already had and has.

The crux of this issue comes down to the fact that you simply don't want to see this ship in any other light other than the one you've already cast on it. But each to their own I suppose?