(01-12-2019, 03:58 PM)Tenacity Wrote: Vhfs are mostly the same as always, but pretty much lost the ability to use missiles in any effective way, and lost things like starkiller/sunslayer torpedoes which had their uses. Imo fighter missiles should go back to using class 9 or 8 slots, so you have to pick between them and guns, and we should see the return of fighter torpedoes.
Bombers have gotten their guns mostly nerfed to the point they can no longer hit fighters (not including scatters or chainguns), the snac is obviously less useful now, the Corona is considered op, but only against larger caps, and scorchers/neutralizers, while interesting, are largely useless due to super short range and very high drift/spread. If the spread were removed or drastically lessened I think these would see more use.
I think these changes were vast improvements on the game. Missiles going in the CD/Torp slot prevent every snub from being built as a space superiority fighter. Now you have to choose between whether you want your fighter to fill an interceptor role (CD), burst damage role (mini razor or similar) or a fighter hunter (missile of your choice). Covering multiple roles requires multiple ships. It's a rather unfortunate that not so many people play anymore. The current Cannonball is much like a leaner, faster Starkiller missile, and not all that far off in terms of damage (assuming that the out-of-date stats for the Starkiller on the Wiki are still accurate).
Some of the newer bomber weapons strike me as gimmicky, but I think the fact that it's not as easy to slug a fighter or other bomber with a SNAC and expect an instant kill is a positive thing. Dying the second your shields go down because you flew too close to a vet in a bomber isn't very inviting to either new players or players with high ping or little PVP experience. The fact that they have a multiplier for larger ship classes only might be hard to explain away with in-universe scientific gobbledygook, but it's much easier to reconcile with the designated role of bombers. Against its intended targets, the antimatter cannon is still very competitive with the Nova torpedo.
These changes in loadout coupled with the speed increases is good too, since it emphasizes the importance of the interceptor role, which never mattered when every ship had 350m/s cruise speed. Now you have a reason to fly a light fighter or a heavy fighter instead of a VHF besides arbitrary loadout rules imposed by player factions on their recruits.
All of this is very much in line with the WWII naval combat analogy Discovery has cultivated over the years. Fighters duke it out and try to keep the bombers off the big ships. Bombers try to nuke the big ships so they don't flak the snub wings to pieces. Big ships are trying to duke it out with each other while occasionally swatting at the hornets over their heads. Making any one ship class too general erodes the utility of related classes, and making one too weak eliminates it from the competition entirely.
That being said, while I haven't seen much cap combat lately, I do get the sense that gunboats are in poor shape as you say, since I scarcely see anybody flying one.
A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
What do I think would encourage activity? Let's throw some ideas around.
①More story events (Council event is unresolved, no new events..)
②More updates, particularly as balance seems to get on everyone's nerves (re: carriers)
③More story movement be it large or small (maybe some bases changing hands on a regular basis, perhaps linked to a trade commodity)
④Bonuses to trading certain RP routes (right now ore trading is by far the most profitable)
To expand on ④, for example Gran Canaria is being annexed by Bretonia, in order to Annex the planet military supplies/personnel are required, you can buy Marines from Battleship Suffolk for example for 500, and sell on Gran Canaria for 1600-1700 (forgot the exact number), there are only two ways to get to O49 from New London, via Dublin or via Poole, so it is fairly straightforward to intercept said deliveries. It would be interesting if this route were made more profitable, coupled with there being a sell point for Marines on unlawful bases so cargo piracy also works. Piracy is dead because in the old days, there were a few select profitable routes that everyone ran, so pirates knew where to be to guarantee meeting traders, routes like the one above should be rotated to provide activity for a certain play area.
(01-12-2019, 03:58 PM)Tenacity Wrote: Vhfs are mostly the same as always, but pretty much lost the ability to use missiles in any effective way, and lost things like starkiller/sunslayer torpedoes which had their uses. Imo fighter missiles should go back to using class 9 or 8 slots, so you have to pick between them and guns, and we should see the return of fighter torpedoes.
Bombers have gotten their guns mostly nerfed to the point they can no longer hit fighters (not including scatters or chainguns), the snac is obviously less useful now, the Corona is considered op, but only against larger caps, and scorchers/neutralizers, while interesting, are largely useless due to super short range and very high drift/spread. If the spread were removed or drastically lessened I think these would see more use.
I think these changes were vast improvements on the game. Missiles going in the CD/Torp slot prevent every snub from being built as a space superiority fighter. Now you have to choose between whether you want your fighter to fill an interceptor role (CD), burst damage role (mini razor or similar) or a fighter hunter (missile of your choice). Covering multiple roles requires multiple ships. It's a rather unfortunate that not so many people play anymore. The current Cannonball is much like a leaner, faster Starkiller missile, and not all that far off in terms of damage (assuming that the out-of-date stats for the Starkiller on the Wiki are still accurate).
The problem is that fighters are now limited to a single missile launcher, at the exclusion of their cruise disruptor, and not a single fighter missile launcher in the game is worth using on its own. If they're going to remain this way, the missiles need to be buffed to the point where they're actually worth giving up a CD.
As it is, the Cruise Disruptor is too powerful. It doesnt just take you out of cruise; it stops engine kill (pretty much wrecking anyone's ability to maneuver, especially caps), it stops cloaking, it stops jump drives, it detonates mines (which can be used both defensively and offensively in a snub fight), and it destroys most heavy ordnance including nova torpedoes and most capship missiles.
The reason you dont see people using missiles is because giving up a CD is too big of a hindrance that the missile doesnt make up for, especially when missiles are countered by not only simple dodging but also countermeasures and CRUISE DISRUPTORS.
CDs need to be nerfed, they fill too many important roles in a fight. Missiles need to be buffed, they arent strong enough to warrant the loss of a CD.
Weapons like the mini razor and inferno cannon are largely useless on most fighters because they can no longer one-shot another snub (the hades in particular is stupid unless you're trying to snub swarm a cap). The only time you see mini razors in use are on SHFs that cant equip bomber weapons.
Quote:Some of the newer bomber weapons strike me as gimmicky, but I think the fact that it's not as easy to slug a fighter or other bomber with a SNAC and expect an instant kill is a positive thing. Dying the second your shields go down because you flew too close to a vet in a bomber isn't very inviting to either new players or players with high ping or little PVP experience. The fact that they have a multiplier for larger ship classes only might be hard to explain away with in-universe scientific gobbledygook, but it's much easier to reconcile with the designated role of bombers. Against its intended targets, the antimatter cannon is still very competitive with the Nova torpedo.
These changes in loadout coupled with the speed increases is good too, since it emphasizes the importance of the interceptor role, which never mattered when every ship had 350m/s cruise speed. Now you have a reason to fly a light fighter or a heavy fighter instead of a VHF besides arbitrary loadout rules imposed by player factions on their recruits.
Except it doesnt, nobody flies light fighters, and any faction with a VHF will fly that over a heavy fighter. In fact, these issues are part of the reason that you see nothing but caps 90% of the time now (and, to compound that, often nothing but battleships - because battleships have been given far more weapon variety and versatility than any other cap class while also remaining the class with the highest damage, most armor, and most weapon hardpoints). Any time a decent player takes out a battleship, the devs go and add another codename weapon to their already flooded repertoire designed to specifically counter whatever killed them, because god forbid battleships have any weaknesses.
Quote:That being said, while I haven't seen much cap combat lately, I do get the sense that gunboats are in poor shape as you say, since I scarcely see anybody flying one.
Gunboats have gotten neglected more than all of the other caps, IMO, and worse they've been nerfed unnecessarily. They're the only capship class that has multiple shield levels to choose from (and before you say that's a good thing, there really isnt any choice at all, using a heavy shield for a gunboat takes a quarter of your power regeneration and throws it out the window for a minimal capacity increase). They lost the ability to freely mount razor and pulse weaponry due to the hardpoint changes, their weapon range is too short to effectively fight other caps (barring a few ultra-small gunboats that are difficult to hit even at close ranges), and despite being delegated to a 100% anti-snub role (by not allowing them to effectively fight other caps), they're still not even that good against snubs because they're slower and the anti-snub gb missiles are crap.
To be an effective anti snub craft, you need to be able to actually kill the snubs you're fighting, not just deter them from entering a 900m radius area around you. Gunboats lack any heavy hitters for taking out fighters; their razors/glaives can manage it against a poor fighter that gets too close, but only if you have two of them equipped (A single razor wont take out any full-health VHF with armor). Silencer missiles only deal 7500 damage, and now require ammo (cap missiles used to be ammo-free, they were much better then), meaning the snubs can simply outlast you by running your missiles out.
(01-15-2019, 03:24 AM)Markam Wrote: What do I think would encourage activity? Let's throw some ideas around.
①More story events (Council event is unresolved, no new events..)
②More updates, particularly as balance seems to get on everyone's nerves (re: carriers)
③More story movement be it large or small (maybe some bases changing hands on a regular basis, perhaps linked to a trade commodity)
④Bonuses to trading certain RP routes (right now ore trading is by far the most profitable)
To expand on ④, for example Gran Canaria is being annexed by Bretonia, in order to Annex the planet military supplies/personnel are required, you can buy Marines from Battleship Suffolk for example for 500, and sell on Gran Canaria for 1600-1700 (forgot the exact number), there are only two ways to get to O49 from New London, via Dublin or via Poole, so it is fairly straightforward to intercept said deliveries. It would be interesting if this route were made more profitable, coupled with there being a sell point for Marines on unlawful bases so cargo piracy also works. Piracy is dead because in the old days, there were a few select profitable routes that everyone ran, so pirates knew where to be to guarantee meeting traders, routes like the one above should be rotated to provide activity for a certain play area.
Thats actually a really good idea for the omega 49 event, I like it. Let's make this happen admins
While we are throwing around random ideas, I also had this quirky idea regarding war-zone systems, though I have no idea regarding feasibility.
Basically, Battleships would launch waves of super-powered NPC's at regular intervals towards enemy positions, at the same time the rival Battleship would launch a similarly super-powered NPC wave, both groups of NPCs would meet in the middle somewhere, and provided there is zero player interaction, they would likely destroy each-other, or one would win out. The winning NPC's then proceed to the enemy battleship, perform an "attack" action, then return to base.
There would be a number count for each super NPC that was destroyed, and a number count for each "attack" action made (each engagement that was won). The theory being, is that players would join either NPC side in order to A) Make their NPC side win the "attack", and B) Reduce losses to friendly NPCs (let them make it back to base), rival player factions would compete over this area via pvp. As an added incentive npc ships could drop some valuables, whatever is deemed appropriate.
The desired effect is two-fold;
①Players would be encouraged to join these NPC fights in order that the count favors their faction. If players join the NPC fight on both sides, well, then PVP happens.
②The count could factor into story decisions as a contributing but perhaps not deciding factor, or as a precondition for a decider event, i.e, side A won the count, so they get to fight an event to determine side B's base.
The reason I suggest something such as this is simple, it provides the first trigger for people to log into the game. People tend to shout on discord if xyz faction is logged in, and react to this. The problem being, if neither side logs in first...
I'm going to say it bluntly, delete systems.
The game works on simple interactions: 1- Trading/Smuggling/Mining, 2- Piracy, 3- Law enforcement, 4- House wars, 5- Nomads/Wilds. It was all great when you had 200 and more players trying to log, there was always something to do, you would always run into someone and the magic worked there. Interactions gave you enjoyable time in-game, and things could develop to the forums to expand those stories.
Now, considering the average amount of players online disco universe is way too big. I understand there is a lot of work invested on developing systems, trade routes, etc. and that it would be painful to see that work wasted. But I think it would make it more interesting if there are better odds that you will run into someone, and not that you have to fly 15-20 minutes to get some interaction.
Bring back the barge!
Seriously though, at least the option to buy it.
Sure it flew like a jar of molasses in space, but whenever it flew you needed at least a couple people to help escort, or help fueling for jumps.
Another would be the mining events, like back in 4.85~ when gold/silver/h-3 were boosted payouts.
Granted you would need a logical reason (i.e. supply needs) to reason in RP, but there's a multitude of reasons why a particular house or faction might need these raw materials.
And on the note of smuggling, if the lawfuls logged more frequently would coincidentally be a plus.
Having to fear for our cargo(and lives) is definitely more invigorating than drift coasting to dock with artifacts or cardi.
I myself witnessed a mass blockage of Manhattan a week or two ago which was impressive, but since then have rarely run into LPI, and maybe a handful of LN.
Lastly, player faction time requirements.
I'm not a leader of an official faction anymore (ex IC|), but I think from a standpoint being in their shoes that it causes more problems with the current requirements.
Maybe drop it back to 2 days require flight time, but in turn make the leaders (1iC/2iC) be required to maintain some sort of presence in order to maintain their reign of official factiondom.
RP perhaps, but some instance of activity besides the in game flight time requirements.
(01-15-2019, 03:24 AM)Tenacity Wrote: The problem is that fighters are now limited to a single missile launcher, at the exclusion of their cruise disruptor, and not a single fighter missile launcher in the game is worth using on its own. If they're going to remain this way, the missiles need to be buffed to the point where they're actually worth giving up a CD.
As it is, the Cruise Disruptor is too powerful. It doesnt just take you out of cruise; it stops engine kill (pretty much wrecking anyone's ability to maneuver, especially caps), it stops cloaking, it stops jump drives, it detonates mines (which can be used both defensively and offensively in a snub fight), and it destroys most heavy ordnance including nova torpedoes and most capship missiles.
The reason you dont see people using missiles is because giving up a CD is too big of a hindrance that the missile doesnt make up for, especially when missiles are countered by not only simple dodging but also countermeasures and CRUISE DISRUPTORS.
CDs need to be nerfed, they fill too many important roles in a fight. Missiles need to be buffed, they arent strong enough to warrant the loss of a CD.
Weapons like the mini razor and inferno cannon are largely useless on most fighters because they can no longer one-shot another snub (the hades in particular is stupid unless you're trying to snub swarm a cap). The only time you see mini razors in use are on SHFs that cant equip bomber weapons.
I would agree that in particular the Train Cruise Disruptor is in need of a nerf. The Mosquito is ostensibly more specialized for handling ordnance detonation (and not so great at actually disrupting other ships) but when the TCD does a good enough job with blowing somebody's missiles up and also lets you interdict any size ship with relative ease, there's no point in not using it if you're gonna have a CD at all.
I'm not inclined to think that because you find missiles to be unworthy of the trade-off that they necessarily are so. Missiles take a significant portion of a target's hull with them in exchange for not really having to aim them. Exhausting the massive supplies of countermeasures that the current line of droppers offers? That's another story. Both CDs and CMs are far too easily spammed, whereas other kinds of ordinance are too limited in capacity to compete with someone else's countermeasure supply, or too expensive to be carrying a full load of lest you lose and feed someone a few million credits in different kinds of high-end ammunition.
In a situation where you only have 20 or 30 cruise disruptors, you can't just spam them every time somebody fires a missile or drops a mine. As for CMs, I think they should number fewer for a full load as well. Basically the only utility there is in having a mine dropper is disrupting a trade lane behind you when you're getting chased down by the local boogeyman, since whenever anyone who's played this game for more than half an afternoon figures out you're trying to mine them you end up getting hit with a steaming fistful of your own explosives. Launching a cruise disruptor ought to feel like a decision not made lightly, rather than a mindless push-button routine. Same with dropping CMs.
Maybe it would be good to give CDs a bit of a failure rate too. Old-school real-life fighter missiles were commonly fired in pairs because they so commonly whiffed. The TCD basically never misses as long as your target is in range. Bad CM dropper placement on a lot of transports makes CMs more or less useless for countering them anyway.
Missiles are still useful for people like me, who fly fighters but aren't always so hot at aiming for other fast-moving targets, so getting a little extra boost is nice. I don't run them on pirate ships (because I need the cruise disruptor for that), but I usually mount one on a ship where I intend to be reacting than instigating. That being said, it might be cool if it were possible (and I have no honest-to-goodness idea whether it is or not) to remove the engine kill-cancelling effect of CDs and transplant it instead to missiles. This way a heavy hit from a missile causes a sort of "system shock" explained by the damage dealt.
I'm sure that would have some nasty unforeseen consequences (most well-intended ideas do), but I'm spitballing.
I think boosting the mini razor up to levels where you could one-shot the average de-shielded fighter or bomber would be a grave mistake -- like I said before, going down to a single blow from full hull is alienating and aggravating in a snub fight, especially to new players, of whom there seem to be rather few of these days. I think it's reasonable to hand a kill like that to someone piloting a capship where the guns are too powerful not to do that.
Perhaps a solution here would be to eliminate the shieldbuster fighter energy torps (tartarus, inferno, etc.) and merge that with the Mini Razor -- give it the same hull damage as shield damage (about 17k), to make it a more useful weapon (provided there isn't some engine limitation forbidding this). Raise the projectile speed a bit to 500m/s or 550m/s. (Still just spitballing.) Slightly better for harassing freighters and transports, and much better for getting another snub pilot to brown their pants without taking them out of the fight too quickly without the projectile being so fast that it syncs with common fighter guns.
You have a good point pertaining to the SHF class, which is really more like two classes, Very Very Heavy Fighter and Bomber That Can Mount Fighter Guns. For the sake of consistency (and perhaps also balance) it would be better to make all of them of the Bomber That Can Mount Fighter Guns variety, to give them a broad appeal as utilitarian multi-role ships. They're all too big and heavy to properly evolve into a space superiority fighter, but it would be handy for players who like to fly solo and need to contend with potentially many different kinds of encounters.
The only problem with this would be that then the Rogues and Mollys would have three ships in their line that could use a SNAC -- Hyena, Barghest, and Werewolf. Of course, this could be remedied by shrinking the Werewolf down and calling it a heavy fighter instead (although I bet about half the devs would read this idea and snort coffee out their nose from laughter).
To give Heavy Fighters an extra edge (and make their role more distinct from VHFs), perhaps they could boast fewer guns (4-5) in exchange for getting both a CD/Torp and a CD slot, in more the tradition of the Jackdaw and the Gladiator. This gives them the ability to play gunner and interceptor, but without the interceptor speed and agility of a light fighter, and without the boosted powercore of a VHF. Boost HF cruise speed from 375 to 380, reduce VHF cruise speed from 375 to 370, to keep the classes more distinct in that regard.
I rather like the roles the ships currently seem to be aiming to fill, but there are ways they could be molded to better fit within those parameters.
A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay,
brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
(01-15-2019, 03:26 AM)Tenacity Wrote: Thats actually a really good idea for the omega 49 event, I like it. Let's make this happen admins
What was the process that got the Kurile Docking ring event going? If its a faction led thing, then a process should be clarified so other factions can get a piece of the action.