Requesting clarification

[Agmen of Eladesor]

Okay, obviously we've had some discussion lately regarding how we of the BHG|Core do things.

I'm taking this opportunity to remind people of a few things about us.

First, we're not regular Bounty Hunters. Please quit confusing us with them. This was made perfectly clear back in April of 2010. We've referred to this frequently that the Core does NOT hunt bounties. We can - but we don't. (This has caused several notes back and forth between Dusty and I about this, because of our differing interpretations of things, especially our ID.)

Second, there is no vanilla behind our (BHG|Core) RP. Hell, I don't think that anyone is even left who used to only be a member of the old Core, back when the S/D and Core merged. We've had to make everything up on our own about what we're doing. And we've been doing this now for more almost two years - and we've been consistent in the way we've written our RP. The issue is that most people, if you haven't been in the Order, haven't seen us.

Third, we're NOT indiscriminately shooting all Zoners anywhere and everywhere. If we were, there would be legitimate cause to complain. We've only been shooting the Zoners that have, in our opinion, been actively assisting the Order - which is allowed by our ID. (i.e., the ones in Delta, 74, Kappa, and Theta.)

Actually, we've accomplished pretty much what we wanted to accomplish in the Omicrons, which is to have equal treatment for the Order by the Zoners - at least in Delta and Theta, and we'd like to continue talking to someone regarding Kappa and 74. We specifically limited our conflict to the Omicrons, from the beginning, and kept it there.

Fourth - well, that gets into the whole bounty board thing. The only reason we have a bounty board is because we've been told we need one to avoid being charged with PvP abuse. But the only people who show up ON our bounty board are basically the people we can shoot as per our ID in the first place. Do we need to actually collect upon those bounties? Again - we're talking as the BHG|Core here, NOT as the regular BHG|.

Fifth - seriously, folks. Some zoners are now listed as being allied with the Order. I'm not saying that as a metagame issue, I'm saying that as the way they show up on the wiki, in their faction descriptions, and the way that they role-play. I'm seeing a bit of a double standard here that they can claim neutrality and scream and cry about us shooting them - when they're not actually neutral, they're allied with our enemies.

Sixth comes into role-play. People keep telling us that we need to role-play as bounty hunters. We do - we have the BHG| that does that. For almost two years now, the BHG|Core has been set up as a group that is fighting for control of Nomad tech with the Order. There's a reason why, when the Corsairs quit being allied with the Order, that it became VERY easy for us to stop shooting them. It fit in with our role-play - we go after Order, Nomad, Wilde, Outcasts, and anyone assisting them - since the Corsairs aren't doing that, why should we continue fighting them in Gamma or anywhere else in the Omicrons?

Again, the only way we're allowed to attack someone is they're not allied with the Nomads or Order is if they have a bounty on them. Who was it that had a bounty on the Corsairs in the Omicrons? Oh, that's right - we're the only ones. With our NAP - why are we fighting them?

Because someone decided that we had to fight them? Seriously? We're not allowed to grow and actually role-play like we have two brain cells to rub together? We're not dating their daughters (I know, I like to use that) but if we really don't have a reason to shoot them out in the boonies - why would we? (Again, I'll point out that without OUR own BHG|Core bounty on Corsairs, under the rules of the bounty board, WE CAN'T ENGAGE THEM OUT THERE!)

It was mentioned hey, why doesn't the LN have to claim bounties on the RM? Well, it's who they are. As the very first line of the Core ID says, that's who WE are. We've been shooting the crap out of the Order for the better part of 2 years now, and vice-versa. Where is their bounty board where they're claiming everything? Oh, wait - they can't fulfill bounty contracts, but they CAN shoot us according to their ID. Why do the same rules not apply to us that apply to them?

I would appreciate it if this did not get locked pending discussion by higher authority, but was left open so that members of the community can also give rational and intelligent feedback to this discussion. (Faint chance of that, but I can always hope, right?)

Pilot carrying this ID is a member of the Bounty Hunters Guild, who :

* Can fulfill lawful bounty contracts,
* Can trade and escort traders,
* Can demand cargo or credits from ships carrying contraband and destroy them if they refuse to comply,
* Cannot ally with any unlawfuls,
* Cannot participate in any unlawful actions.
* Cannot use any transports with more than 4,300 cargo

Pilot carrying this ID is a member of the Bounty Hunter Guild Core, who :

* Can attack Order, Nomad or Wilde and anyone actively assisting them.
* Can destroy any ship produced by The Order, regardless of the pilot's faction affiliation.
* May operate anywhere in Sirius that the Bounty Hunter ID permits. However Cruisers and Battleships may not operate in house space (as defined by the rules).
* Can fulfill bounty contracts.
* Can demand allied pilots, Nomad technology and Nomad specimens from other ships and destroy ships if they refuse to hand them over (Cruisers or Battleships may demand pilots only).
* Cannot demand any other cargo or credits.
* Cannot ally with any unlawfuls
* Cannot participate in any unlawful action.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Jinx]

edit:

clearing it up a little...


the BHG core ID was meant to be simple:

"your single goal is to gain access to alien technology. - you are single minded - and you simply blow things up that are in your way."

the order is in your way, you don t hate the order - but they are preventing you from getting the nomad technology. the order is what the core is not. - the order patronizes sirius - pretending to be the savior that can "distribute" alien technology when they think ppl are ready for it. - what an arrogant attitude - and the core, based on a system of "to each one his own" ( coming from the BHG ) believes itself to be ready for the technology. - competition equals balance. - distributing technology makes you a pawn.


the core is not large - in numbers probably smaller than the order, cause the majority of the order operates as informants in the core - while only a smaller part acts as a military ( guard ).

at the same time - the nomads are low on numbers, too - their hypergate gone, and the core aware of their doings - they have no power at all to fight openly - but thankfully - nither the order, nor anyone else is really powerful ( compared to like the liberty navy or other militaries )



the core is a military with one single task - that is what keeps them alive. they managed to build capital ships - which are essential in the edgeworlds... no one can travel there without them. if you want to travel without them, you need a very good logistic system - and the BHG has never cared for that, cause they formed a symbiosis with the zoners - protection for shelter.





* * *


about the diplomatic issues:

you are hostile to X and neutral to T.... X is hostile to Y, Y is hostile to B, B is hostile to O, O is hostile to W, W is hostile to V, V is hostile to T..... everything is interconnected in sirius - but just cause you can follow the chain of hostilities doesn t make T hostile. - it does not matter how long that chain is - it matters that you need to apply the primary diplomacies ( not real life ones, cause we deal with a simplified system here )



who can shoot who?

order can shoot the BHG core, BHG core can shoot the order - they are officially at war. - but this war does not include their secondary allies.

the BHG is basicly allied with all the lawful police forces - but the order must not simply KoS all police forces - the very contrary - the police is more or less a friend of the order ( considering that many operative workers are in the core - often working with the a uthorities )



BHG and BHG core? -

maybe it might be beneficial when the bHG and BHG core differentiated more. - i have seen BHG joining core operations quite often - and wonder... "is there nothing the BHG is more concerned with than to team with the core?"

the BHG is very similar to the zoners ( believe it or not ) - or the img. they are a guild - but mostly a diverse group of individuals - who benefit from a centralized bountyboard. but there it ends. BHG may even cut each others throats when they get into each others ways.

what they probably won t do is to join anti-order activities or mlitary activities in the edgeworlds with the core.... but thats just me.




@post below:

the BHG and BHG guard "non-factionized" players have not invented m uch in terms of IDs from my knowledge. - except that BHG players act as core players - they stood quite true to their given diplomacy and canon RP.

why the war was done - there may be many reasons - one might be that the order is one of the more exciting factions - but the RP itself doesn t offer much in terms of action - so a war attracts players.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[kramer]

The whole idea of the Order / BHG war is not working that's the problem.
As a developer i still do not understand why Igiss implemented this idea.

In general there should be RL guidelines following the spirits of vanilla FL or the chaos, we already got here, will get worse.

I you did not noticed yet the majority of the playing players are not members of an official faction.
Instead a minority is inventing over and over again ridiculous stories to cover their PVP but totally ignore the roleplay consequences.

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Armin van Buuren

[Akura]

The BHG/Order war was stupid to begin with, and without it, the BHG Core have no reason to exist. Whole bunch of silliness it is.

[casero]

you are hostile to X and neutral to T.... X is hostile to Y, Y is hostile to B, B is hostile to O, O is hostile to W, W is hostile to V, V is hostile to T..... everything is interconnected in sirius - but just cause you can follow the chain of hostilities doesn t make T hostile. - it does not matter how long that chain is - it matters that you need to apply the primary diplomacies ( not real life ones, cause we deal with a simplified system here )
who can shoot who?

Just to clarify, this is not a so long chain.

You ( C) are hostile to O and neutral to Z, Part of Z is allied with O, You are hostile with that part of Z. It makes sense for me.

Now, if that part of Z wants to take this problem to the rest of the Z group, that's perfect too.

And if the Z group wants to take that to L, B, R and K groups about what the C have been doing, GREAT AS WELL.

And H which is associated with C would be in troubles? Perhaps, that depends how they play it.

For me, it makes sense what the Core has been doing, and I don't understand why everyone think it's bad for them. If they are willing to take the concecuences of that, and the people play their cards right... why not?!?!

I don't want to lose the point of this thread.

From my point of view, shooting those Zoners that help The Order makes perfect sense for the Core ID.

[Agmen of Eladesor]

Jinx -

I can definitely see that summation of the Core being pretty accurate.

We've actually tried to play it similar to how you're talking, or at least I think we have, anyway. Maybe a little variation on that, but that's part of making it our own.

Diplomacy .... we've tried to maintain our net diplomacy regarding the people we interact with based upon how they interact with us, and with whom they also interact. Part of the problem is that we (and by that, I'm referring to discussions with all of the guild masters) interpret our ID's to mean that actively allied can be an entire group of people - not just Mary Jo and Bobby Sue, but their whole organization. (Or specifically, Marvin and the late but not lamented Tomoe.)

It may sound strange considering that I lead a guild of warriors, but I actually prefer to settle things without fighting. I'd rather that we NOT end up shooting each other - to me, that's part of my role-play as Max, to try to bend people to his will. (In real life I play semi-professional level poker, so making strong bluffs or sometimes weak ones is part of it - but sometimes I also have the cards and I'm not bluffing, too.)

FYI, we currently have 52 active players in our basic Guild chat, with 61 players in our emergency channel. That's AFTER we purged it recently. To be in that chat, you have to be in the BHG| or BHG|Core. We may not be the biggest faction in Sirius - we're certainly not a minority, though.

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Oh god... The end of days... Agmen agreed with me.

[Akura]

You actually might be the biggest faction in Sirius.

[Zelot]

In my personal opinion, the BHG|Core rp is killing the BHG rp on the server. I rarely see Bounty Hunters Guild players claiming bounties on the bounty boards. It's been many many months since I have seen any presence of Guild rp on the forums, aside from the Core. I think you should split the factions and apply for official status for the Core. Whats going on now is not fair to the NPC faction, and unfortunately since the BHG and the BHG|Core is the same thing, and it's the leaders who decided this, there is no one to speak out for the BHG npc faction, which is dieing, because you guys have more fun shooting stuff out in the Lolicrons, and dont like filling out bounty forms. So the BHG in the houses will die out, but there wont be an opportunity for someone else to try and do something with the faction because of the 1 faction rule. If you want to be Core, be Core, do that rp and give someone else a chance to play the BHG rp on the server.

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[casero]

In my personal opinion, the BHG|Core rp is killing the BHG rp on the server. I rarely see Bounty Hunters Guild players claiming bounties on the bounty boards. It's been many many months since I have seen any presence of Guild rp on the forums, aside from the Core. I think you should split the factions and apply for official status for the Core. Whats going on now is not fair to the NPC faction, and unfortunately since the BHG and the BHG|Core is the same thing, and it's the leaders who decided this, there is no one to speak out for the BHG npc faction, which is dieing, because you guys have more fun shooting stuff out in the Lolicrons, and dont like filling out bounty forms. So the BHG in the houses will die out, but there wont be an opportunity for someone else to try and do something with the faction because of the 1 faction rule. If you want to be Core, be Core, do that rp and give someone else a chance to play the BHG rp on the server.

I agree on spliting BHG and the Core, it makes more sense.

However, I've seen BHGs in the houses, at least in liberty, and dublin a lot too.

EDITED:

By the way, I thought that a concecuence of the Core's actions would end in splitting the factions anyway. Shooting civilians (even as annoying as the zoners) is not acceptable for most of the houses (maybe Bretonia would allow, 'cause they suck)

[Zelot]

I agree on spliting BHG and the Core, it makes more sense.

However, I've seen BHGs in the houses, at least in liberty, and dublin a lot too.

Have you seen them claim any bounties?

Edit: I actually just did a quick little check, aside from the last few days on the Liberty board, the last BHG claim on the Bretonian board was Oct 6th, and well Kusari, that never happens, and Rhienland, It was over 6 months ago. So, on the major house bounty boards, the Bounty Hunters Guild player faction has maybe 10 posts in the last 6 months or more. I think that's a problem.

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