Do the civilians really need GBs I mean really?

[Laerethe]

As it seems the Dev Team several times asked for civilian GB models and are eager to add such in the mod.
This raises couple of questions to the bright Dev Team Idea and to the rest of the community:

1st: Do the civilians really need GBs? And if so why? Since both pirate and corporate IDs can use gbs and there are enough GBs already that could be used with reasonable nerf- 10 to 25%.

2nd: What would make player Pirate A to join pirate faction A if he could have non-limited ZoI with unnerfed capital ship class like GB, Why Corporate Trader A would chose to use its nerfed house boat like it should be in RP over the unnerfed civilian one?

3rd: Since now single GB cannot be beaten by single bomber or fighter if the both players can fly ships why the player A would take fighter or Bomber since it could fly GB and have more power in its hands without restrictions like pirating with caps?

4th GB whoring leading to Cap whoring- it is clear that A would take GB for escort duty or for piracy- it is better then bomber or fighter. In order to counter it B would also need to take bomber or fighter but since they alone cannot beat GB B is forced also to fly GB or bigger cap- this leads to even more caps and less snubs and this is bad Idea in general.

5th The nerf calculator does not hurt the GBs in the same way as bombers and fighters, GBs with full basic turrets are really not that hurt even with 75% core, bigger gbs with 600k core can even barely notice the nerf, the system is not good working according to the GB balance, the nerfs for GBs must be bigger.

6th Power of the GBs in packs- 4 GBs have more punch then same amount of cruisers or snubs, if flown well then even more then 2 Battleships, gbs in groups are the best balance breaker in Discovery.
There are many lawful/unlawful NPC factions that does not posses GBs- better make some for them then giving GBs to everyone with unrestricted ZoI.

And still since the GBs are more powerful in 4.86 then bombers and fighters adding more unaffiliated GBs without nerf will break even the broken fragile balance here adding even more power to non-lore "indie" groups while good factions with tons of RP background die slowly. So adding such GBs would have awful result both balance wise and RP wise.

I know that many that would post here are part of the GB flying indie squads and would go "not u", well I cannot care less since the facts shows that non-lore factions/groups with better IDs/ZoIs/Tech have more to do then the small unlawful/lawful lore factions in discovery and the second ones are slowly dieing, I find adding such ships to encourage this. For example I have seen more other IDed Brigand GBs then Brigand IDed Brigand GBs- if this is your RP- to take overpowered ship and roam around Sirius without any restriction I cannot care less about you.
If the devs also approve this approach then they are no better then you.

1. Nerf implies you're using technology of another faction without permission, which results in dire consequences. Also, Freelancers have no counter to enemy Gunboats; in theory, that is cruisers. Gunboats are anti-snub, so don't suggest bombers. You'll need at least 2/3 snubs, one/two of them bombers to even stand a chance.

2. He doesn't have a free license to do as he wishes; he can only attack in self-defence, to claim a bounty or hired on the spot. Why would the Corporate Trader want a gunboat?

3. Gunboats will suffer against other Gunboats/Larger capitals, and lone fighters/bombers shouldn't be able to take it down anyway, unless they are 'pro'. Just bring a partner. Obviously, the Freelancer boat wouldn't be quite as good as official fleet alternatives.

4. I don't see Ahoudori's being whored; I personally see far more bombers pirating than gunboats. Gunboats aren't always great; far easier to hit, and difficult to kit out.

5. If it doesn't hurt much, than why is point 1 relevant? You've just stated that the nerf is negligible, and that there needs to be a greater one. If its negligible, might as well not be there at all, right?

6. Undeniably correct. But this can be dealt with with a single cruiser paired with a couple of snubs. Navies get a use for all their indie caps sitting around chasing snubs. This would only be a problem with pirate blockades, but I see this happening with Ahoudoris.

The problem happens with the Ahoudori, another option for a gunboat is not necessarily going to make it exponentially worse, eh? Ships become neglected.

Perhaps if the gunboat was light and the Ahoudori became nerfed, it would decrease the issue. Ahoudoris are very powerful; giving them a light gunboat with 5/6 turrets and paper(~75k) armour, with average agility would reduce usage and give more traders a chance.

Still, its pointless these LABC/Noughts sitting around Manhattan doing nothing. It could encourage more teamwork and conflict.

Finally, I ask you to remember; there are restrictions. However, if you were worried about pirates, we could introduce docking restrictions; cannot dock gunboats in House systems or bordering independent systems. This would force them to come from esoteric Zoner bases.

[Ursus]

Bomber have no chance to remove battle-transport in 20k- none I am telling you.

That's completely wrong. Nova the thruster and the transport is going nowhere, then its just a matter of killing it with more novas from 1.5k.

they nerfed pirate transports in 4.86 and buffed the armoured transports to the level where the armoured transports are better then the pirate transports when in 4.85 they were equal,so the option to fly Ptransp is really not a option now.

I don't know where you are playing, but the most common pirate ships in california are the barghest and the ptrans.

---

Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[Anomander]

why? we have Civilian several LF, HF, VHF, Bombers but only 1 Civilian Gunboat

some bodyguards needs GB
some security pilots needs GB
vigilante needs GB
convoys needs GB
pirates want GB

there is plenty of people who would like fly in Gunboat/Gunship
but there is no many options in choosing a ship of this class since we have only 1....

---

<<< MuS|portfolio|RSF >>>

[Mímir]

True in a situation where you are alone vs a transport and are within range, a transport doesn't stand a chance. Ir cant fight back using the transport turrets. But nevertheless a skilled transport captain would have an easier time running from a gb compared to a bomber. Maybe a simple "fix" would be to adjust cruise drain to the power core nerf - it would give transports a better chance at getting out of range. And/or nerf the range on basics.

Also even when a lawful trader doesn't hire escorts he still usually travels within house space, and is under some protection of lawful gank mobs. Of course sometimes navy/police/bhg are occupied elsewhere, but still... Also there are new bomber guns designed for anti-gb combat (namely the hellfire rocket gun and the incapacitator torpedo) so I think it's just a matter of time before everyone will figure out ways to counter gb's.

---

[Govedo13]

there is plenty of people who would like fly in Gunboat/Gunship
why?

Because it is multi purpose ship allowing to do more then the other options- better in offense then P transp and bomber and better in defense then them exactly there is the problem. In 4.85 corps were not allowed to use GB and pirates had no use of them due to the P-transp. Buffing
P transp together with nerfing the corp armored transports would make GB usage for pirates redundant and the balance of 4.85 would be back. Giving the option for both sizes to use cruisers in not a solution.
In RP freelancers does not have resources to build or maintain GBs.
Dingo if the tranp is in CD range there is no difference. The only advantage of the bomber is that it could stop running transport better on gate then the GB but this is also luck dependable(npcs docking)
Ursus- P transp got is core nerfed and its cargo hold nerfed, together without the ablity to use energy efficient fighter turrets- you are really playing on different server.......
Transport with 500 shield batteries and capital ship thruster can survive 20k without problem vs Nova bomber, novas does not work vs Transport shields and also no light bomber would use nova instead of snac because it is suicide move vs everything that comes to shoot it, you as I would say again does not have pirate character you cannot comment it without having the experience to comment, so please do contribute or leave this discussion.

Edit: Dingo you continue to be wrong: use your brain: option 1- tranpsp 140 thurst, gb 150 thrust- do the math..., option 2 -CD and cruise to 0m, take some dmg till you get your core on then rape the transp, both works on 100% depending how far away is the trader. If the GBs had 120 thrust and the transp 150 then it would be like you said, however it is fun to run from GBs and others in Geisha.

---

€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Mímir]

Not entirely true. If the transport is more than 800 meters away from you, you can cd him all you want but he can keep using his thruster to stay out of range of basics. Only option for the gb is then to hit cruise to catch up, and if an increased duration of cruise drain was in place for nerfed gb's, it would prove a difficult strategy to pull off/give the trader more time to reach safety


EDIT: I stand corrected! However with a difference of 10 ms in thrust speed, it still does take some time to catch up if the transport manages to get out of range of the basics. And if the cruise drain period correlated to a power core nerf, it would give transports more time to reach safety before the gb would have its weaponry on-line, and it would result in fewer people taking the nerf / using faction weaponry.

I do see some merit in your complaint, though. If a sweet new open use gunship hits the market, soon Sirius will be flooded in pirates piloting it. Perhaps tweak the price on the open use gunboats - I would gladly pay 100 million for an Ahoudori, but I think some people would rather go for a cruiser (and thus not pirate) if they had to shell out that kind of money.

---

[Ursus]

Learn to use Mamoru or stop posting

---

Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[kikatsu]

Freelancers do have the money and resources to get GBs, all you need is six people to crew it and a few million credits...Freelancers built Barrier Gate and Heisenberg was repressurized by them. People can get money for them.


People say the Kusari Explorer is a good enough gunboat for Freelancers, but I say no, I at least want access to a lighter gunboat for freelance work.



And they are not Civilian ships, they are built by the CTE Corporation, Civilian in game doesn't mean Civilian, just free to use tech. Bad excuse really to say they should not get them. In general though, I think an open to all GB should be slightly sub par compared to faction GBs for balance maybe.


EDIT:

[1:54:01 PM] Reverend Del: Civilian in FL simply means Not Owned by a faction

[AeternusDoleo]

Well, Govedo, all other motivations aside. Can you give me ANY reason why an independent pirate is allowed to run with the Kusari Explorer at will, without drawbacks... and the corporations should -not- have a similar craft? Balance would dictate the opposing parties get equal equipment. Right now it's biased towards the unlawfuls, with only the house navies able to provide a similar counterforce. Giving the corporations the same kind of toys the various unlawful factions have has been on the planning since the start of 4.86 -> that's why corporations were allowed to use gunboats. With the power nerf in effect, there's now a need for a true civilian gunboat, on both the lawful and the unlawful side. The CTE line has traditionally be the generic lawful line. The Borderworlds line the unlawful one. Adding a light gunboat to each of those lines gives players the option to make full use of it.

---

Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.

Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.

[Mímir]

I don't think it's fair to say that things are balanced towards unlawfuls in any way. In the piracy-encounter the sole responsibility of RP (and thus typing whilst trying to keep the transport under control) is on the pirate, the trader is allowed to employ every little dirty trick in the book, the lawfuls have ready and willing gank squads in ships up to and including battleships, they have TLAGSNET and so on.

There's even been talks of using cruisers as trade escorts here on the forum (naturally only within respective house space). I think if anything this game is highly balanced in the favor of lawfuls, which is totally fine, but the gb gives the pirates the much needed "staying power" to survive the uneven odds. Freelancers can get an Ahoudori and work as escorts already, and they are not being kept in check by a limited ZOI.

Make gunboats more expensive perhaps so Sirius won't get flooded by them.


EDIT: In my world corporations with gunboats doesn't make much sense - heavy security would be outsourced to security companies / mercs / freelancers, whilst corporations would be taking care of trading and producing.

---