I understand what you are saying, but i postulate here to you the distinction between telling them what they can do, and telling them what they CANT do.
Regulations vs rules.
This is all you can do vs. You can do anything but this.
Aff?
gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|
I was going to respond to Jameson's usual Ad Hominem of how anything that comes out of my mouth is independent rage or something akin, but I decided against it since hiding behind a shield account designed to prevent that means he does not want any further ad hominem usage. How ironic. (Also, I lead two factions, a convenient fact to forget, but eh.)
' Wrote:Isnt a response.
Its a cop out to prevent having to explain yourself.
Now that my rage has subsided (and yes that was me being angry), onto the topic. (Forumlolwuts, this is how you craft a response. Take it from a English teacher, kay?) Introduction
I have to agree with Jameson and the others about bringing back stronger faction command rights. Thesis:
Almost every faction in the game represents a government of one form or another.
it simply makes sense, that these factions have command over those of "lower rank", and be able to severely punish them. Background/problem
Now, lets look more in depth, shall we?
The issues i am seeing brought up here are these: Lolwut caps, freedom to own caps, Faction rights, Independent rights, and capspam.
Specifically, the problem is lolwut caps causing problems, with some proposing a restriction on independents as a whole.
I think we can all agree that A) Lolwuts need to be curtailed, and taught. B)Factions can't run everything, and C)Independents should still be under the control of Factions.
As it stands now, the only control on Lolwut caps is the money. (il believe)
Factions have power only over those that break vanilla rp.
Independents have the power to completely screw over factions rp. (SEE ANARCHISTS AND THE MUDD FP1 INCIDENT FOR ADMINS SAKE)
I think it can also be agreed that Factions need to be able to curtail the excesses of independents, at their discretion, while still allowing they to be...well...independent.
Add to this the fact that almost all lolwuts are independents and presto.
It becomes one issue.
Factions Vs. Independents. Potential solution
I think that the best course of action would not be to require paperwork for everybody, but rather give recourse to factions to punish transgressors even more severely than fr5. Sort of like a starfleastrip fr5.
Where a faction leader could petition the admins to have a lolwut stripped of their factions capital with enough evidence of lolwuttery and misuse of caps, regardless of any rulebreaking. That way the rule doesnt have to be remembered to play well, only remembered if things go wrong.
Also, i submit that i believe that faction players should have the ability to straightout give orders to indies.
But thats a whole different issue. Conclusion
I say again, almost every faction in the game represents a government of one form or another.
It simply makes sense, that these factions have command over those of "lower rank", and be able to severely punish them. We dont have to regulate the non lolwuts. they can go do their thing. We only have to punish the ones who step over the line.
^is important so is in big letters kay?^ ~DarthBindo, Most High Writer of Posts, Exalted Speller of Words, ,Grand Pumbah of Grammar Nazis, Slayer of Ignorance, Smiter of TL;DR, and Troller of Four-Word Replies.
EDIT: I realize this is highly unpolished, and there are grammar mistakes EVERYWHERE, and it doesnt flow, and some parts are nonsensical. Its five in the morning. You can just deal with it. Not that half of you will even notice.
Sorry to disappoint, but it is a response. If you bothered or were capable of reading Cam's post, you would see the reasoning behind it. In fact, I bet if you had the capability to back-track through my posts, and only mine, you would find a counter to every single point raised already.
But, for the sake of sheer incompetence, one more time, from the top.
Thesis is based on RP. Problem is perceived in-RP. Problem is actually OoRP. Explanation behind this is; character is not being idiotic, player is being idiotic. Proposed solution is in-RP. Proposed solution should be OoRP. Hence, thesis basis failure.
No objective standard for RP. Concise definition of "lolwut" unestablished. Basis of anything on term "lolwut" is invalid.
Post does not take into account bias. Post does not stipulate controls. No controls proposed, high potential for abuse.
Deal with it attitude expressed with responses to DarthBindo's post. Deal with it attitude returned from readers of post.
Response completed.
Edit: Over the bare-bones response, and something a tad more emotionally filled, you see Bindo's post as having summarised the majority of independents as evil "lolwuts" who are destroying the server, and that factions must control them. Heh. Really? It seems on this server independents are expected to be held to a higher degree than official factions. Independent players certainly have a lot more rules.
' Wrote:It makes my skin crawl when i see 7 legates in one place. corsairs - the faction that can't feed itself but somehow finds resources to build and maintain several dozen ships that have the size of a small moon.
Ehhh... But this is exactly the case, canon-wise. Crete is an infertile planet, but has an extreme amount of mineral resources. This gives Corsairs a big boon in shipbuilding capacity, but puts the pressure on pilots and workers. Maintaining the ships physically is not an issue - maintaining crew might be. I'm surprised that you didn't know that, considering how long you've been in a Sair faction.
Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.
Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.
' Wrote:-stuff at jameson-
Sorry to disappoint, but it is a response. If you bothered or were capable of reading Cam's post, you would see the reasoning behind it. In fact, I bet if you had the capability to back-track through my posts, and only mine, you would find a counter to every single point raised already.
Why do you think i proposed something completely different then?
Really. Try harder next time, kay?
' Wrote:But, for the sake of sheer incompetence, one more time, from the top.
Thesis is based on RP. Problem is perceived in-RP. Problem is actually OoRP. Explanation behind this is; character is not being idiotic, player is being idiotic. Proposed solution is in-RP. Proposed solution should be OoRP. Hence, thesis basis failure.
And what would an appropraite OoRP solution be? Ban them? The easiest and least painful way to do it is inrp.
' Wrote:No objective standard for RP.
Dont give me that. YOu and i both know thats junk. Didnt a whole bunch of people whine just a LITTLE while back about how something was SOOOO bad rp?
' Wrote:Concise definition of "lolwut" unestablished. Basis of anything on term "lolwut" is invalid.
Stuff this in your pipe and smoke it.
Lolwut: A player who A)cannot destinguish between characters and players, B) makes no attempt at RP, C) Anyone who has uttered the phrases "2mil or dai", "Pirate engaging", "Lawful Engaging", "lol i shoot you now" or anything in that vein, or D)Anyone who actively refuses to rp past the required mimimum before shooting you.
' Wrote:Post does not take into account bias. Post does not stipulate controls. No controls proposed, high potential for abuse.
Now i am wondering if you read, or just...skimmed.
I said my proposal would work almost exactly like FR5's do now.
That is, filed by faction leaders, overviewed and approved by admins.
Also, perhaps we should change ZONERZONERZONER to ABUSEABUSEABUSE?
Seems to be quite the boogyman.
' Wrote:Deal with it attitude expressed with responses to DarthBindo's post. Deal with it attitude returned from readers of post.
I am now in teh process of powertrading silently while typekilling pirates so i can buy a cap 8 jinkusu with zoner guard id, whichi will then take to 74 and theta and bugger the ell out of all you. I will do everything i possibly can to shoot things as allowed by the id. I will spam chat with meaningless messages. I will ram into you. I will block docking to the freeport. I will say nasty inrp things about you. And i will get away with it beacuse you are powerless to stop me.
Deal with it? I daresay you wont just "deal with it".
THERE. IS. A PROBLEM.
WE.CAN.FIX.IT.
why dont YOU deal with it.
' Wrote:Response completed.
gone four years, first day back: Zoners still getting shot in Theta :|
' Wrote:Why do you think i proposed something completely different then?
Really. Try harder next time, kay?
And what would an appropraite OoRP solution be? Ban them? The easiest and least painful way to do it is inrp.
Dont give me that. YOu and i both know thats junk. Didnt a whole bunch of people whine just a LITTLE while back about how something was SOOOO bad rp?
Stuff this in your pipe and smoke it.
Lolwut: A player who A)cannot destinguish between characters and players, B) makes no attempt at RP, C) Anyone who has uttered the phrases "2mil or dai", "Pirate engaging", "Lawful Engaging", "lol i shoot you now" or anything in that vein, or D)Anyone who actively refuses to rp past the required mimimum before shooting you.
Now i am wondering if you read, or just...skimmed.
I said my proposal would work almost exactly like FR5's do now.
That is, filed by faction leaders, overviewed and approved by admins.
Also, perhaps we should change ZONERZONERZONER to ABUSEABUSEABUSE?
Seems to be quite the boogyman.
I am now in teh process of powertrading silently while typekilling pirates so i can buy a cap 8 jinkusu with zoner guard id, whichi will then take to 74 and theta and bugger the ell out of all you. I will do everything i possibly can to shoot things as allowed by the id. I will spam chat with meaningless messages. I will ram into you. I will block docking to the freeport. I will say nasty inrp things about you. And i will get away with it beacuse you are powerless to stop me.
Deal with it? I daresay you wont just "deal with it".
THERE. IS. A PROBLEM.
WE.CAN.FIX.IT.
why dont YOU deal with it.
Already proposed. Not different. Current system allows for removal of capital ships if problem is bad enough, at discretion of Administrators.
The solution would be to try teaching them and involving them, rather than lording over them. However, if they continue in a non-RP fashion, the solution would be to file a sanction under 1.2 or something else violated, and let the Administrators handle it. Unless you are expressing a lack of belief in the Administrators?
Not really. There is no objective standard. Otherwise the "whine" would have been successful. Q_Q.
I am sure some in the Corsair movement considered jetblack357 a "lolwut", he was even sanctioned, but he does not come under your definition. Given more time I could find more flaws in your definition.
Skimmed. Censored
Censored. As said earlier, shooting at your own NPC faction is disallowed. The Administrators recently sanctioned the aforementioned person for this. They even shut down my character's bounty because of this, supposedly. Hence, already covered by rules. Ramming also has a rule. Type-killing has been sanctioned before under not enough time. F1 and no-RP gets you destroyed by the Administrators and other players respectively. Deal with it.
' Wrote:Would it not be better to punish on a case-by-case basis rather than punishing everyone?
It's not punishment it's prevention. Don't mix up terminology in order to look like you are saying something decent or playing that "fairness" card.
Quote:The solution would be to try teaching them and involving them, rather than lording over them
It doesn't work. Quite a bunch of people who spent their time (I bet more than 3 months+) doing it, can say the same.
For now I have an assumption, that people who doesn't suffer much from those so called "Lolcaps" doesn't really care much about the players who do. There also migth be some people who have quite a bunch of capital ships and as we can see, they are all opposing this idea (in this thread you can obviuosly see it, won't name names, k?) just becouse they are lazy to do some little paperwork for common good.
Now those who see postition only from theoretical side, but didn't suffered from their effects easily talks about rights and similiar things. Here we smash into the wall. Agains, as I mentioned, lacking in any will to actually do something about the problem instead of blaming each other. Or even searching for personal way to flame a person who said something you disagree on.
Yes it's pretty much biased opinion. But if you can prove me wrong, do it.
' Wrote:For now I have an assumption, that people who doesn't suffer much from those so called "Lolcaps" doesn't really care much about the players who do. There also migth be some people who have quite a bunch of capital ships and as we can see, they are all opposing this idea (in this thread you can obviuosly see it, won't name names, k?) just becouse they are lazy to do some little paperwork for common good.
Now those who see postition only from theoretical side, but didn't suffered from their effects easily talks about rights and similiar things. Here we smash into the wall. Agains, as I mentioned, lacking in any will to actually do something about the problem instead of blaming each other. Or even searching for personal way to flame a person who said something you disagree on.
Yes it's pretty much biased opinion. But if you can prove me wrong, do it.
Considering you quoted me in your response, I will respond to it from my viewpoint.
Most would not. So far I deal with Order and Zoner "lolcaps" supposedly. Capital ships being over-used in specific situations happen, however, it is only as much of a problem as you perceive it to be. They are easily killed, easily commanded by FR2 and easily removed by FR5.
I do have a lot of capital ships. I think I have a fair chance of approval for every single capital ship I have, with the exception of my Corsair ones.
Common good is subjective. Read Cam's post for why restrictions are not the way to go.
I see this first-hand. I am on both sides of the fence. I doubt you know both sides well enough.
There is will to do something. The will to say no.
Well. A life without steriotypes is bad for your health, man. Just some of them are wrong, some of them are right.
Quote:with the exception of my Corsair ones.
See you do that yourself.
Anyway in my post I didn't intented to mark you as someone special. It was answer to quite common answer then people ask for some kind of control.
About fr5, not all people have fraps activated. And screens in the middle of the battle are taken randomly, so lack of evidence is quite often problem.
About cam's post I find it a bit childish. Starting from rights perspective and thinking that rights only grant freedoms while ending with his offensive approuch twordwards religion, any kind. Also, I don't mind loosing a huge part of playerbase which only causes problems. Besides, I think people tend to think that applications would require some uber long stories. You would only need to show a interest, a willingness to roleplay. And that you are buying your ship with some kind of idea behind it. Not just "Do missions and shoot random people I encounter"
I guess it won't surprise anyone that I find myself in approval of restricting capital ship access. The alternative I could agree with would be all those people speaking of freedom for the "indies" (Wait? Isn't this to restrict lolwuts and not indies?) doing all the long-necessary sanction reports. Spend an hour in Alpha and you'll have the first 5 to start with. Have fun.
' Wrote:Go play the game, within the given limitations. That is how role play games are played. Not by trying to work around those limitations or whining about them.
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