The Big Ones, their amount and a possible solution

[pruskis92]

So if my corsair want to have Hornvipers and it's not ok, unless I'll RP it out that I found them and admins will believe it, meanwhile starving zorzairs can have more battleships than very heavy fighters... Come on, why these 4 hornvipers are so special and for a starving faction battleship isn't !? Those who really want those battleships, they'll be forced to enter damn forums, and read teh damn rules before they write request for their it, is it so damn hard to write that ? Many of you whine here about it, requesting battleship will really ruin your RP.

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[Diomedes]

I think some people will be surprised that someone who has been an official faction leaders for as long as I, would be strongly against any proposal of this type.

A) This is a game, it's a role playing game at that, but now we are going to say to players that you can only play the roles that the faction leaders say you can play. Here is this whole world of roles you cant touch because you pissed off some faction leader at some point. I remember way back when, the first time I saw a battleship on disco ingame, it was an awe inspiring experience. I decided I had to have one, it seemed to be the top of the hill in the disco universe, it is something I have to assume everyone on disco has tried out at one time or another. Understand, as long as Capital ships are part of the game, people will want to fly them, and to restrict them.... its not fair. Once again this is a proposal where people who have been here are allowed to do something, and people who are new cannot. It's all well and good when the people proposing, or supporting the proposal wont be affected by it, it's another to ask the people voting to give up something themselves. I think if the question was, "Should all current caps undergo this process" very very few people would support it.

B) As a faction leader, I am not really looking for more headaches, more responsibilities, more time out of game. I think you will find many faction leaders dont get to play their characters in game much. Why? Because so much of their time is taken up dealing with bullcrap. FR5's and skype yelling and factional governments and roll calls, and so on and so on and so on. It's hard to get good people to want to be faction leaders these days, why? cause we throw so much nasty slop on their plates that the smart people dont want to have anything to do with the job. Much like admins, who have so much to deal with that many people who would be good at the job, have no desire to do it.

C) Igiss says so, and to be perfectly honest, thats all I need to hear.

/Signed, along with Casero's post re-quoted a couple posts above.

Yeah sure, I'm fairly new here and I don't know all the ins and outs. That said, I can still make an intelligent observation.

So, it seems the discussion has missed one important point here. There is a middle group of players, not heavily into the factions or the forum but aware of the rules and required in-game conduct. There are people who might have a few hours once or twice a week to play, and they want to spend it playing rather than reading a ream of forum posts or filing paperwork.

Indies can be completely capable, and even come up with something that is both original and non-destructive RP wise. Throw everything under the control of factions and you will lose this playerbase. They won't deal with the hassle, nor the fact that they can't really get on and play without being under the heel of players who happen to have either the time or the desire to get some letters added to their callsign. Factions are great and they serve an obvious purpose, for interaction, events and play. Controlling every ship in the game is not their purpose, nor I think is it to represent the entirety of some very large organizations (or why have NPCs?).

Cap ships are indeed something to aspire to both size-wise and RP wise. The represent a challenge in gaining capital, flying and role-playing. Again, the "middle" player base won't see this if there is a mound of regulations and paperwork in front of it and they will either leave or never join.

As for the lolwut ships, there is no one single answer. These are players who circumvent the standing accepted rules and conduct; they will circumvent whatever new ones are added. Teaching will work with some. With others, sanction and engage with extreme prejudice and within the rules. A lolwut ship won't prance around so much if it gets lanced by 3 or 4 bombers when it decides to get stupid.

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[Dennis Jameson]

So if my corsair want to have Hornvipers and it's not ok, unless I'll RP it out that I found them and admins will believe it, meanwhile starving zorzairs can have more battleships than very heavy fighters... Come on, why these 4 hornvipers are so special and for a starving faction battleship isn't !? Those who really want those battleships, they'll be forced to enter damn forums, and read teh damn rules before they write request for their it, is it so damn hard to write that ? Many of you whine here about it, requesting battleship will really ruin your RP.

You know... you just supported the 101st with your message. :ylove:

I'm guessing you might want to take a shower right about now.

... good post though.

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Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

10/6

[Ceoran]

So, it seems the discussion has missed one important point here. There is a middle group of players, not heavily into the factions or the forum but aware of the rules and required in-game conduct. There are people who might have a few hours once or twice a week to play, and they want to spend it playing rather than reading a ream of forum posts or filing paperwork.

There are also players who want to have their fun here without the necessary paperwork of filling sanction reports against lolwuts in capital ships. I've so far collected screenshots about 4 rule violations this week, 3 of them involving capital ships. And you know what? It's TUESDAY! I seriously don't have the time to do all that paperwork and report every lolwut I encounter. Guess what, I want to have fun playing the game too.

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My Stories Outcast laws and structures Join Samura|-

Go play the game, within the given limitations. That is how role play games are played. Not by trying to work around those limitations or whining about them.

[Not Espi]

diomedes, you missed the point. if they are capable of at least elementary comprehension of the rules and their specific ship's roleplay, they would probably pass. it would just filter out those that simply fail to grasp the concept of roleplay and fail to keep up with the rules. even if only temporarily. people can learn, and they can re-apply in case they fail.

nobody is saying that indies are idiots and factions are the 'rp elite' - no.

[Curios]

Conclusion of all mentioned could be illustrated.

Bureaucracy, less time in game, more order

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Golden Middle

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Freedom, less paperwork, more time in game, chaos



So, the idea proposed is lying somewhere too close to Bureaucracylancer. Of cause, we don't want it to be too close to the chaoslancer as well. Thus we had to sacrifice some order on some freedom to be in the golden middle that allowing us to have as much possibilities as we can get at minimum chaos.

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[Dennis Jameson]

The fact remains that this system functioned perfectly well in 2008, and plenty of people who are here today saw it work... including myself.

It wasn't a "bureaucratic hellhole" as some would put it, nor was it oppressive. It was working, and it was making sure that indies learn how to be productive members of this community before they got their hands on capital ships, although most of the indies who were taught to be civil did not desire to have a capital ship when all was said and done.

Something must be done if the rampant use of capital ships for moronic things is to be put to an end, we simply cannot continue along the same path we've been heading down throughout this year.

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Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

10/6

[Curios]

Well.

I see no problem in capital ships. 10 of them could be deal with by 5 bombers on usual basis.

So, it's not that powerful to make 10 times for paperwork for faction leaders.

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[Govedo13]

Conclusion of all mentioned could be illustrated.
Golden Middle:

Nerf the normal cap guns a bit, add buffed cap weapons and buffed cap armour(x6) for the official factions
every official faction should have some fair amount of battleships/cruiser with buffed guns and armours.
It will change the aim of the lolwut to have cap, he would want faction cap so he would join the faction and learn a bit RP and get one someday.

The whole register thing is not possible since there are 215657375467654 caps ships and the cap owner faction leaders are not hired or paid to do tons of paperwork. This plus the faction right to change your battleship to common fighter when he do the mentioned upon lolwut actions.

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€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Doc Holliday]

TAZ leader here albeit a bit late.

As a player, I'd like to see cap ships at all levels with some sort of SRP. We have too many lowluts flying around with juggernauts for the simple reason of that great feeling, "Hey, I have a battleship." I only see a few in server who can actually RP with one and I've been around awhile.

As an admin, I oppose SRP's for the simple reason that the Admin team has already got enough work. Want proof? Look at the sanctions! I would, however, support a specific set of guidelines for cap ship use which would be sanction able. I do agree, we do have too many idiots flying their juggies in house space just for the sake of doing it and then claiming ignorance of the rules.

As a faction leader, anyone in TAZ who has a juggy has to talk to me first. If they don't have a good RP reason for it, they don't get it. We do our best to RP Zoners as they're supposed to and by the info cards, the Fearless destroyer is the backbone of the Zoner defense. If I'd like to see one cap ship beefed up a bit, it's the Fearless.

As for the comment that Zoners shouldn't have cap ships, I'll maintain my defense that we wouldn't need them if people would stop pushing them. Yes, Yes, I know the response, "have you tried getting rid of them to test that theory?"
To which I will say, "And make it easier for you to push even harder?" I would also maintain, "If you want peace, prepare for war." Not saying that I'm going to start a war because my RP is otherwise.

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