Do the civilians really need GBs I mean really?

[Govedo13]

As it seems the Dev Team several times asked for civilian GB models and are eager to add such in the mod.
This raises couple of questions to the bright Dev Team Idea and to the rest of the community:

1st: Do the civilians really need GBs? And if so why? Since both pirate and corporate IDs can use gbs and there are enough GBs already that could be used with reasonable nerf- 10 to 25%.

2nd: What would make player Pirate A to join pirate faction A if he could have non-limited ZoI with unnerfed capital ship class like GB, Why Corporate Trader A would chose to use its nerfed house boat like it should be in RP over the unnerfed civilian one?

3rd: Since now single GB cannot be beaten by single bomber or fighter if the both players can fly ships why the player A would take fighter or Bomber since it could fly GB and have more power in its hands without restrictions like pirating with caps?

4th GB whoring leading to Cap whoring- it is clear that A would take GB for escort duty or for piracy- it is better then bomber or fighter. In order to counter it B would also need to take bomber or fighter but since they alone cannot beat GB B is forced also to fly GB or bigger cap- this leads to even more caps and less snubs and this is bad Idea in general.

5th The nerf calculator does not hurt the GBs in the same way as bombers and fighters, GBs with full basic turrets are really not that hurt even with 75% core, bigger gbs with 600k core can even barely notice the nerf, the system is not good working according to the GB balance, the nerfs for GBs must be bigger.

6th Power of the GBs in packs- 4 GBs have more punch then same amount of cruisers or snubs, if flown well then even more then 2 Battleships, gbs in groups are the best balance breaker in Discovery.



There are many lawful/unlawful NPC factions that does not posses GBs- better make some for them then giving GBs to everyone with unrestricted ZoI.

And still since the GBs are more powerful in 4.86 then bombers and fighters adding more unaffiliated GBs without nerf will break even the broken fragile balance here adding even more power to non-lore "indie" groups while good factions with tons of RP background die slowly. So adding such GBs would have awful result both balance wise and RP wise.

I know that many that would post here are part of the GB flying indie squads and would go "not u", well I cannot care less since the facts shows that non-lore factions/groups with better IDs/ZoIs/Tech have more to do then the small unlawful/lawful lore factions in discovery and the second ones are slowly dieing, I find adding such ships to encourage this. For example I have seen more other IDed Brigand GBs then Brigand IDed Brigand GBs- if this is your RP- to take overpowered ship and roam around Sirius without any restriction I cannot care less about you.
If the devs also approve this approach then they are no better then you.

---

€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Rafaelo]

I thought freelancers could use the Ahoudori, isn't that enough? I mean why the hell would a freelancer need a GB in the first place, other than pirating.

[massdriver]

As it seems the Dev Team several times asked for civilian GB models and are eager to add such in the mod.
This raises couple of questions to the bright Dev Team Idea and to the rest of the community:

1st: Do the civilians really need GBs? And if so why? Since both pirate and corporate IDs can use gbs and there are enough GBs already that could be used with reasonable nerf- 10 to 25%.

2nd: What would make player Pirate A to join pirate faction A if he could have non-limited ZoI with unnerfed capital ship class like GB, Why Corporate Trader A would chose to use its nerfed house boat like it should be in RP over the unnerfed civilian one?

3rd: Since now single GB cannot be beaten by single bomber or fighter if the both players can fly ships why the player A would take fighter or Bomber since it could fly GB and have more power in its hands without restrictions like pirating with caps?

4th GB whoring leading to Cap whoring- it is clear that A would take GB for escort duty or for piracy- it is better then bomber or fighter. In order to counter it B would also need to take bomber or fighter but since they alone cannot beat GB B is forced also to fly GB or bigger cap- this leads to even more caps and less snubs and this is bad Idea in general.

5th The nerf calculator does not hurt the GBs in the same way as bombers and fighters, GBs with full basic turrets are really not that hurt even with 75% core, bigger gbs with 600k core can even barely notice the nerf, the system is not good working according to the GB balance, the nerfs for GBs must be bigger.

6th Power of the GBs in packs- 4 GBs have more punch then same amount of cruisers or snubs, if flown well then even more then 2 Battleships, gbs in groups are the best balance breaker in Discovery.
There are many lawful/unlawful NPC factions that does not posses GBs- better make some for them then giving GBs to everyone with unrestricted ZoI.

And still since the GBs are more powerful in 4.86 then bombers and fighters adding more unaffiliated GBs without nerf will break even the broken fragile balance here adding even more power to non-lore "indie" groups while good factions with tons of RP background die slowly. So adding such GBs would have awful result both balance wise and RP wise.

I know that many that would post here are part of the GB flying indie squads and would go "not u", well I cannot care less since the facts shows that non-lore factions/groups with better IDs/ZoIs/Tech have more to do then the small unlawful/lawful lore factions in discovery and the second ones are slowly dieing, I find adding such ships to encourage this. For example I have seen more other IDed Brigand GBs then Brigand IDed Brigand GBs- if this is your RP- to take overpowered ship and roam around Sirius without any restriction I cannot care less about you.
If the devs also approve this approach then they are no better then you.

Civilian GB. Well civilians are somehow a seperate faction here with ID, custom shipyards and bases. If so they need GB. heh.

GBs are overpowered, but it can be seen only in powerful hands which became not so rare nowadays. I had some situations when 4 snubs + bombers couldnt get a single GB. hmm. I love disco balance!

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[AeternusDoleo]

1: Given pirate factions may attack with bombers and gunboats, giving the civilian (trading) factions a defense against these is only fair.

2: Corporations do not get the house military ships. They do get the weapons. That's why you see the civvy convoys escorted by Eagles and Starfliers and the likes. These gunboats are intended as an extension to that.

3: If players prefer a heavy escort they can do so. Gunboats win against fighters or bombers 1 on 1, usually. But 2 or more fighters can quickly bring down gunboats since they can't evade fire as easily. In packs they can become a menace, but will have problems dealing with heavier gunboats.

4: No more then the present. Besides, a bomber can still torpedo a transport from a distance, using superior speed to stay out of gunboat range.

5: That's a balance issue. But frankly, basic turrets themselves are sub-par in the amount of damage they do, so if a player chooses basic turrets merged with an out of tech gunboat, he does receive both a max damage output, and sustained damage output nerf. Working as designed.

6: Then learn the proper counter to a gunboat pack. Think smaller. Swarmgank them with fighters, concentrating firepower on one target. They'll drop like flies.

[Edit] Also: Both the civvy gunboats I requested are of the Gunship type - bottlenose esque. Those do not have the solo hitting power of say, an Auduhori.

---

Wide awake in a world that sleeps, enduring thoughts, enduring scenes. The knowledge of what is yet to come.
From a time when all seems lost, from a dead man to a world, without restraint, unafraid and free.

Mostly retired Discovery member. May still visit from time to time.

[Swallow]

Aet explained it all very clearly.
Besides, Ku Ex does not fit every role because of its Ku origin

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FL MOD(EL)MAKING: TOOLS, RESOURCES, TUTORIALS AND MY SHIPS (OLD)

I am on discord: Roal-Yr#5994, I don't log on forum more than a few times a year.

I am not making ships for FL anymore, I am making my own space game instead:
https://github.com/roalyr/GDTLancer
https://roal-yr.itch.io/gdtlancer
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5HQB...cdH45LZgjj

[Govedo13]

1: Given pirate factions may attack with bombers and gunboats, giving the civilian (trading) factions a defense against these is only fair.

I cannot see what you wrote here. It is illogical sentence.
Pirates does not receive around 200 cr/per second
for pressing F1 and F2.
Pirates should have better ship options then traders enabling the pirates to actually do what they do- Pirating, if the traders are protected with GB they would not pay and hence the pirate cannot actually fulfill its role.
Same as house military- they do need better vessel then the traders and pirates to full-fill their role, if the traders have the same gunpower as pirates while making 200 cr/sec then the pirates become redundant, same as house militaries.

2: Corporations do not get the house military ships. They do get the weapons. That's why you see the civvy convoys escorted by Eagles and Starfliers and the likes. These gunboats are intended as an extension to that.

100% wrong. All non mega lolwut corporations that can write good enough in English might receive Gb or two from their respective military faction, Convoy for example have even a cruiser. It is a good idea and since tradesman are not military grade pilots they also get respective 10% nerf to balance it out- everyone more then happy without adding useless GBs.

3: If players prefer a heavy escort they can do so. Gunboats win against fighters or bombers 1 on 1, usually. But 2 or more fighters can quickly bring down gunboats since they can't evade fire as easily. In packs they can become a menace, but will have problems dealing with heavier gunboats.

This way of thinking sux really, combine this from the other prescriptive- if the Pirate wants to pirate in heavy ship(cruiser) he can do so...
then you would see where you are wrong and why you are biased towards the traders.

4: No more then the present. Besides, a bomber can still torpedo a transport from a distance, using superior speed to stay out of gunboat range.

Indeed- trader escort bomber can do that to protect the transport if it is stupid enough not to scout the lines before that.

5: That's a balance issue. But frankly, basic turrets themselves are sub-par in the amount of damage they do, so if a player chooses basic turrets merged with an out of tech gunboat, he does receive both a max damage output, and sustained damage output nerf. Working as designed.

Sorry but you have no idea about trader vs Pirate balance- it is not about how much dmg you can dish out on single hit but how much you can do in 20k time span, the basic turrets are better then 90% of all faction turrets for pirating, i would let you think why they are.

6: Then learn the proper counter to a gunboat pack. Think smaller. Swarmgank them with fighters, concentrating firepower on one target. They'll drop like flies.

This is not true, again transport covered by GB cannot be killed in 20k by 2 snub pirates(bomber and fighter let say), you need 4 at least, why the pirates would need to double their forces to succeed?
It is damn illogical double standard and I does not like it.

[Edit] Also: Both the civvy gunboats I requested are of the Gunship type - bottlenose esque. Those do not have the solo hitting power of say, an Auduhori.

Turret Bottlenose is the best anti- snub gb on par with Asco in the 4.86. They rape snubs- this make this decision even worst.

Don' t get me wrong- I have also bounty hunters, and house military ships, I am on the both sides of the fence at the same time, but piracy was screwed big time once when 4.86 came out, now if this is added it would be screwed for second time. This in general screws not only pirates but also the house militaries, because they got their activity not by one single bralw per week with the other side that they are in war with but with protecting traders, if the traders can protect themselves so good then the house military becomes redundant, and all pirates have no other chance then to fly GBs in order to be able to counter the traders escorts, in general you are on very wrong path that only decease activity in long term, if you does not believe me see the last factions that got their status removed.

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€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Ursus]

Govedo I hear what you're saying but I think this is alright.

Civilian is different from Freelancer. House civilian cannot use the house gunboat or Explorer very easily. Freelancer could use the Explorer easily. I wanted to remove the ability for Freelancer ID to use gunboats, but the dev team wanted to balance it the other direction so this is what we have.

Its a light gunship, so hopefully it will only have about 5 turrets and a smallish core.

Hoepfully the Explorer will be reclassified or deleted. I'm tired of seeing it everywhere.

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Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[Govedo13]

Small GS with 5 turrets you say? Bottlenose have 4 turrets front only and it is still the best anti-snub GB in the Mod... think again. Combine that the GB have also 200-300 bots and bats to feed the transp to the nearest base making 100% impossible for single pirate to remove the transport in the required time. Even if the transp is faragile train with 500 bots and bats and au8, the GB would make sure that light pirate bomber let say Roc would not be able to remove the transp before reaching the base, even with some calculation you would see that Roc do need at least 12k to remove au8 Stork if the stork pilot know what he is doing and if the Roc pilot does not miss single snac. Add now cau8 battletransport that can reach alone without GB support the nearest base, it kills snubs as option for pirates.
It would automatically force the pirates to fly GBs too, and I cannot say that this is good idea.
This would make the Hunters and the Navy not to fly bombers and fighters too- because 1 v 1 they have no chance to remove the pirates- this would lead to even more cap whoring in general.
Well even worst as I said, I have seen many lolwut moves from the Dev team but this one is like shooting in their own foot, killing activity of factions that are not money makers but play for the PvP mostly, giving the PvP to the factions that are also money makers- really bad bad idea.

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€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)

[Ursus]

Pirates does not receive around 200 cr/per second
for pressing F1 and F2.

no they make 2 mil per second by type /L1:D

100% wrong. All non mega lolwut corporations that can write good enough in English might receive Gb or two from their respective military faction, Convoy for example have even a cruiser.

Bad example, Bowex cannot use cruiser and they switched to military faction to get access to the military line.

Turret Bottlenose is the best anti- snub gb on par with Asco in the 4.86. They rape snubs- this make this decision even worst.

Bad argument. The bottlenose is shaped like | the CTE gunship is shaped like oOo

if the traders can protect themselves so good then the house military becomes redundant

We all know that the traders don't use the resources they already have availalbe to them (escorts, military protection, etc). They won't use this one either.

What will happen is this will get used by a few of the freelancers and corps as an escort ship that is rarely used. Mostly it will be used by pirates.

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Discovery 24/7 Negotiating Tactics:

[Govedo13]

Ursus I bet you have no single pirate character. I would urge you to try first for a couple of months then to try to give any feedback. Because you obviously have no idea.

---

€œ

Official faction players that are often accused of elitism, never deploy them and have those weird, immersion killing "fair fight/dueling" suicidal hobbies. (yes, i've seen enough of those lolduels, where house military with overwhelming force on the field willingly loses a pilot in a duel. ffs.)