Justin, I think the issue people are having is that it was realized immediately that the range is one of the deciding factors in the weapon's overpoweredness. If it can be fired and hit reliably far outside the defensive range of a cap target, it has no counterplay and amounts to automatic damage.
SNACs are far from guaranteed to hit at max range against anything other than battleships, Novas have even more counterplay options at higher ranges. The Corona doesn't, and this was immediately clear.
Step-by-step balancing is great and all, but it should always come from the underpowered end of things. When I did experimental stuff like SUPERSONIC or Lyre turrets, I erred well on the side of caution, leading to some pretty underwhelming weapons. Now if something experimental is done that turns out to be way, waaaaaay overpowered, maybe it's best not to dial it back step-by-step, but either go back to the drawing board or at least make some more radical changes, especially considering the range was instantly recognized as a problem.
Underpowered stuff tends not to break the game, overpowered stuff does.
I suppose I was just thinking about the other thread stating that bombers are totally useless now. But, Justin is right, that's probably two different groups of people, so the comment is kind of misplaced.
(09-23-2018, 11:08 PM)Iris Wrote: I suppose I was just thinking about the other thread stating that bombers are totally useless now. But, Justin is right, that's probably two different groups of people, so the comment is kind of misplaced.
Yeah. Bombers are now worse versus snubs but way better versus caps which got both groups of the community angry. Go figure.
Okay, so here's the thing. Yes, I absolutely believe in a scenario where 3 bombers with Coronas are fighting a cruiser and maintaining max range, the weapon will overperform. In a group fight, where sitting still and boxing at max range = death because there are multiple targets circling around you, flaks, fighters with nukes, et cetera, I don't believe the range to be an issue in the slightest. It did not once occur to me during the Houston brawl or the Alpha brawl that the Corona was overperforming.
Now for a much more questionable statement - maybe it's not such a bad thing that cruisers and battlecruisers need to worry a little bit now when bombers arrive.
I'm still of the crowd that thinks big heavy beams should be a capital weapon in the first place and thus a pain to aim with, buuuut.
I feel like the corona would've been better with half the DPS and slightly more than half the current energy drain. Six seconds or so to core dump and force them to be on target. Maybe 1000 range tops too.
Shrug.
It'll be good against battleships sure, but everything else (especially gunboats and cruisers) will be a good firm response to it.
They gotta fly straight for a few seconds so they can land those beams eat ass from double harpoons
Posts: 2,743
Threads: 166
Joined: Nov 2009
Staff roles: Systems Developer
(09-23-2018, 10:51 PM)Durandal Wrote: You all know by now that my preferred stance on balance is handling things one step at a time. I'm not fond at all of the idea of applying more than one nerf or buff at once to any given thing, especially not a brand new weapon. The damage resistance overhaul the Corona just received was a massive change and is working nicely. Now we can look into range.
This is exactly why you first make it underpowered rather than overpowered. Then you can slowly take your time and balance it as you wish. When you have an overpowered weapon destroying PvP of course people want it fixed, and they want it fixed ASAP. You gave it overpowered stats, now deal with it swiftly and accordingly.
(09-23-2018, 10:51 PM)Durandal Wrote: Now with all that said as someone who was actually using the thing in a real fight today instead of being on the receiving end of it, it seemed to be in a pretty good spot to me. Yes, the weapon has the advantage over the SNAC of not requiring the pilot's inertia to hit the target, but on the other hand it requires the pilot to sit in one spot, leaving them vulnerable to flaks, fighters, and generally being encircled. I lost approximately half my bots during that fight at Houston, similar to what I would expect using a SNAC. I'm personally inclined to believe a lot of people are looking at the numbers and doing armchair balance with theory instead of using the weapon in actual practice and drawing their conclusions from there. That or you're a guy who only flies caps.
Having tested it multiple times in various scenarios on both sides (last one being Titan dying to 2 corona bombers while being helpless and not even deshielding us once), this is bullcrap. It's nothing like the risk of a SNAC assuming you're actually trying to hit stuff with the SNAC rather than low hit % sniping from max range. Corona does require you to stand still a bit, but the energy consumption is still high enough so you can do smaller bursts of fire. You don't "have to stand still and waste all your core", not at all. It is a slightly longer interval compared to the SNAC, but since you're at safe distance of 1.2k with guaranteed hit on anything that moves the problem is negligible.
Your example sounds more like "I was moving and getting shot" rather than Corona having an impact on it. If you were getting focused and still insisted on standing still and discharging all your core at once knowing you're under pressure, it's your fault. Saying "oh yeah caps should have snubs focusing bombers" is a terrible argument when caps themselves have 0 ways to defend against it. You're the one that didn't want rock-paper-scissor balance.
No matter what you do, a weapon that has 0 risk and is auto hit won't ever be balanced. Make it have a risk.
Edit:
(09-23-2018, 11:10 PM)Durandal Wrote: Okay, so here's the thing. Yes, I absolutely believe in a scenario where 3 bombers with Coronas are fighting a cruiser and maintaining max range, the weapon will overperform.
"Overperform" is the biggest understatement of the year. It will be the cruiser dying quickly with 0 counterplay. Not even solarises can hit from above 600 reliably.
(09-23-2018, 11:10 PM)Durandal Wrote: Now for a much more questionable statement - maybe it's not such a bad thing that cruisers and battlecruisers need to worry a little bit now when bombers arrive.
Jesus Christ get a proper cap balance dev. It's one thing to be a "little worried", it's another that you know they have an insta-hit weapon with high dps and you can't do anything to them.
Okay, so here's an open question to everyone calling the thing OP - do you believe that making it do less damage over more time would be an appropriate drawback in addition to a slight range reduction, probably in the 1k to 800m range?
My issue with "leave it as is and reduce it to 600m" is just turning it into another SNAC reskin, and considering three SNAC bombers can't even kill a well flown cruiser or battlecruiser right now, that is something I would very much like to avoid.
On the topic of Corona it might be a bit weak versus transports actually. The fact it does near fighter damage to transports makes it a pretty bad choice for piracy. I guess it strength really shines versus the big capitals where the multiplier does it's magic.