So, I've noticed a tendency for haulers to only want to pay 5 million for a 5,000 cargo fillup. They are angry, and outright refuse to pay, when I ask for 10 million credits. They will instead wait 20-30 minutes for someone else to show up, just to pay 5 million instead, in which time they could have already sold their cargo. They end up making less money, anyway, and this sort of thing happens all the time.
Why is it that people don't think miners deserve to get paid? Without miners, haulers would be hauling normal commodities for a mere 10-20mil. Because of miners, they can make 45-72mil. Miners don't have to mine. They could be hauling, too, and making the big bucks. Even 10 million for mining is less money for the time spent, than a hauler makes. Especially since we have to switch characters, fly out to the field, and fly back to a base, for every customer. 5 million, for such time spent, is an insult. It's basically expecting us to work for free. When miners ask me for only 5 million, I pay them extra, because 5 million is just absurdly low for their time.
It's also ridiculous that people expect pirates to only ask for 2 million credits. If you ask for 8 million, people think your demand is unreasonable. That's still only a small percentage of the value of the cargo, and not even enough to be worth taking the time to pirate them. It's just a little payment for the service of pirating them. And yes, I do consider pirating a service to the traders. Without the fear of piracy, trading is boring. I trade with the hope that I will encounter pirates.
A few years ago, I remember paying miners 15 million for a load of gold worth only 45 million -- and thanking them for filling me up, because I couldn't make the money without them. When a miner offered to fill me up for 10 or 12 million, I considered it a generous offer. 5 million was unheard of.
And pirates would ask for 10-20 million credits. 5 million was considered a generously low demand, and 2 million was basically nothing. Pirates deserve money, too; they are adding a dynamic to the game, making trading interesting, and are supposed to be giving people incentive to fly a defensive transport, hire an escort, or not get caught. With a demand of 2 million, and also with such demands being rare, people might as well just powertrade in 5k trains with no shield, no guns, and no armor, because even if they do get stopped, the fee is pocket change. I would like to ask pirates who read this to start asking for more credits. Ask for no less than 10% of the value of their cargo, even as much as 25%. 25% of their cargo, a demand of 10-16 million, might be a lot more than what people are used to, but it's still not drastically affecting their overall profit -- especially since people don't get pirated often.
Come on, people, stop asking for only 5 million credits when you fill people up. You're lowering the perceived value of your work, and making people think that such effort isn't worth much, when really it's the backbone of the entire economy. Without miners, you have no haulers. Without haulers, you have no pirates. Without pirates, you have no police. The only people left would be militaries, terrorists, nomads, and mercenaries, who'd have trouble paying for their ships and equipment.
(05-14-2019, 06:20 PM)TLI-Inferno Wrote: So, I've noticed a tendency for haulers to only want to pay 5 million for a 5,000 cargo fillup. They are angry, and outright refuse to pay, when I ask for 10 million credits. They will instead wait 20-30 minutes for someone else to show up, just to pay 5 million instead, in which time they could have already sold their cargo. They end up making less money, anyway, and this sort of thing happens all the time.
Why is it that people don't think miners deserve to get paid? Without miners, haulers would be hauling normal commodities for a mere 10-20mil. Because of miners, they can make 45-72mil. Miners don't have to mine. They could be hauling, too, and making the big bucks. Even 10 million for mining is less money for the time spent, than a hauler makes. Especially since we have to switch characters, fly out to the field, and fly back to a base, for every customer. 5 million, for such time spent, is an insult. It's basically expecting us to work for free. When miners ask me for only 5 million, I pay them extra, because 5 million is just absurdly low for their time.
It's also ridiculous that people expect pirates to only ask for 2 million credits. If you ask for 8 million, people think your demand is unreasonable. That's still only a small percentage of the value of the cargo, and not even enough to be worth taking the time to pirate them. It's just a little payment for the service of pirating them. And yes, I do consider pirating a service to the traders. Without the fear of piracy, trading is boring. I trade with the hope that I will encounter pirates.
A few years ago, I remember paying miners 15 million for a load of gold worth only 45 million -- and thanking them for filling me up, because I couldn't make the money without them. When a miner offered to fill me up for 10 or 12 million, I considered it a generous offer. 5 million was unheard of.
And pirates would ask for 10-20 million credits. 5 million was considered a generously low demand, and 2 million was basically nothing. Pirates deserve money, too; they are adding a dynamic to the game, making trading interesting, and are supposed to be giving people incentive to fly a defensive transport, hire an escort, or not get caught. With a demand of 2 million, and also with such demands being rare, people might as well just powertrade in 5k trains with no shield, no guns, and no armor, because even if they do get stopped, the fee is pocket change. I would like to ask pirates who read this to start asking for more credits. Ask for no less than 10% of the value of their cargo, even as much as 25%. 25% of their cargo, a demand of 10-16 million, might be a lot more than what people are used to, but it's still not drastically affecting their overall profit -- especially since people don't get pirated often.
Come on, people, stop asking for only 5 million credits when you fill people up. You're lowering the perceived value of your work, and making people think that such effort isn't worth much, when really it's the backbone of the entire economy. Without miners, you have no haulers. Without haulers, you have no pirates. Without pirates, you have no police. The only people left would be militaries, terrorists, nomads, and mercenaries, who'd have trouble paying for their ships and equipment.
As a pirate, I have no problem blowing away a trader and CDing his cargo if he decides to argue.
On the flip side there are factions and traders that I choose not to hassle or just give extremely low demands because of the consistent RP and general nature of the interactions. Good behavior should always be rewarded.
It just depends on who you tend to run into.... I think you e just got a stream of bad luck.
How much time do you spend filling up a 5K ship versus the time it wil take him to get to a sell point ? And then the hauler may have to py a Pirate as well before they get to the sell point. 50 million dallar cargo, you fill it in 10 minutes, get 10 mill, pirate gets 10 mill for 3 minutes of robbing. hauler hets 30 mill for 30 minutes of hauling and the 10 mintes gettig filled... pretty sure a miner can make more money by far filling haulers, than the halers make, during the same time period... Lots of players mine and haul. especially if there is a POB nearby..
(05-14-2019, 08:09 PM)kerfy Wrote: pretty sure a miner can make more money by far filling haulers, than the halers make, during the same time period...
If that was true, people would be mining instead of begging people over pm's and discord for fill ups.
Mining profitability is largely dependent on the amount of haulers you are doing business with. With the current server activity I make twice as much hauling PoB ore than I do mining for Haulers or PoBs.
That being said, I charge 5 million for a 5ker, because it encourages repeat business. If I wanted to make money efficiently I would just mine for myself and run the Alu-Gold route all day. If a PoB has supply and you're asking 12-15 Million per fill, then generally it's cheaper and quicker to bypass you entirely.
Hmmm... I never actually knew this was actually a thing. I've only started mining because the ZoG COO introduced me to the idea, albeit I was recommended something a little more efficient.
I've only met a single pirate hauler so far and they asked me to mine for them, I ended up filling their cargo for 5M cause they asked nicely, and that I was tired of encountering passing lurkers.
I think it should be perfectly reasonable for miners to be able to demand up to 50% of the projected profits. Though, I would be inclined to believe, charging 50% is if you a) don't like them, b) don't really have the time. I only say that because of my limited experience with pirates consisted of minimal RP and demands for 40% of my profits, minimum, while calling it "being reasonably nice".
(05-14-2019, 10:07 PM)Klopklops Wrote: I think it should be perfectly reasonable for miners to be able to demand up to 50% of the projected profits. Though, I would be inclined to believe, charging 50% is if you a) don't like them, b) don't really have the time. I only say that because of my limited experience with pirates consisted of minimal RP and demands for 40% of my profits, minimum, while calling it "being reasonably nice".
It takes less than 5 minutes to fill a 5k with the appropriate setup, asking for 50% of the profits for 5 minutes of your time is completely unreasonable.
(05-14-2019, 08:09 PM)kerfy Wrote: How much time do you spend filling up a 5K ship versus the time it wil take him to get to a sell point ? And then the hauler may have to py a Pirate as well before they get to the sell point. 50 million dallar cargo, you fill it in 10 minutes, get 10 mill, pirate gets 10 mill for 3 minutes of robbing. hauler hets 30 mill for 30 minutes of hauling and the 10 mintes gettig filled... pretty sure a miner can make more money by far filling haulers, than the halers make, during the same time period... Lots of players mine and haul. especially if there is a POB nearby..
It takes about 25-35 minutes for a hauler to make 50-70mil.
A miner spends about 2 minutes flying to the field, 5-8 minutes filling the hauler, and 2 minutes flying back to dock again, and people want to pay them only 5mil. The miner makes 30mil an hour IF they're lucky enough to actually get 6 transports in an hour, and the hauler makes 100-140mil an hour. If the miner doesn't have to dock, and has an absolute constant supply of customers (unlikely), they'll manage to make 60 million an hour for providing fillups to 12 people.
(05-14-2019, 10:16 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Because the mining economy sucks balls right now.
A few years ago, there were no commodities to sell for $13-14.6k. Most people were hauling for $9-10k. Meanwhile, they were also often flying longer distances. The mining was also slower, as fighters and freighters did not have an extra mining bonus. Meanwhile, people still paid miners more for their work, paid pirates more for stopping them, and were still thankful for the profit they made. The mining economy isn't that bad right now. It could use more options, though; it sucks that Humboldt is no longer a mining system. Liberty has nothing to mine.
Don't misunderstand me, and think that I'm trying to make a fortune mining. I mine so people can get filled up and make their own money. Even for the 10mil I'm asking, I'd still earn money faster hauling. I just think people shouldn't be so greedy that they aren't willing to pay me 10 million, when I'm the reason they're able to earn credits, switching to a miner to fill them up at one place, and switching again to fill them up at the next spot, yet again switching to fill them up when they've returned. Without me, they would have waited around for a long time and been lucky to haul a single load.
(05-14-2019, 10:07 PM)Klopklops Wrote: I think it should be perfectly reasonable for miners to be able to demand up to 50% of the projected profits. Though, I would be inclined to believe, charging 50% is if you a) don't like them, b) don't really have the time. I only say that because of my limited experience with pirates consisted of minimal RP and demands for 40% of my profits, minimum, while calling it "being reasonably nice".
It takes less than 5 minutes to fill a 5k with the appropriate setup, asking for 50% of the profits for 5 minutes of your time is completely unreasonable.
Big pirate here... I mean really big pirate. I COMPLETELY agree.
20-25 mill demands are sort of cruel and mean and shouldn’t ever occur or if they do between mortal enemies along with a great deal of flexibility in the final price... but it’s hard for me to think of a reason.
Well here is a reason: A dev jokingly threatened to have Valors invade Omicron Gamma if I didn’t stop Pew peeing Gallia, so in response any Gallic/Kusari/Rhineland or anyone remotely suspected of being friendly with gallia would get hit for 50%+ the Cargo Value. No negotiations. That’s AN EXTREME circumstance where it would be okish.
Another example Corsairs were at war with Zoners, and every Zoner got hit for either all cargo or like 50% value.