Did LIA asked to be part of the government to begin with? Not like Liberty isn't a silly place that should be avoided and cordoned out like Chernobyl anyway.
(09-26-2020, 06:54 PM)Relation-Ship Wrote: cloak away when dry in snub fights
I see they're getting to you. Its no crime to actually try though, and its an RP server, not an arcade server! This is all normal behavior when playing as an intel type.
(09-26-2020, 06:54 PM)Relation-Ship Wrote: It no longer is a representation of lawful factions in the house, it becomes an arbitrary group of buddies that can vote others out in their own self-interest
Welcome to Discovery!
(09-26-2020, 06:54 PM)Relation-Ship Wrote: I propose the solutions A) TAKE AWAY GOVS FROM PLAYERS AND BACK TO STORY DEVS AND GMs
- there would be fairness
- they would make in-lore sense
- their behavior would be coherent with story progression
- big negative: Less frequent posts and updates
B) MAKE OFFICIAL LAWFUL FACTION INCLUSION AUTOMATIC
- This will prevent an arbitrary group of people doing what they want in their circle.
P.S. Suggestions were made like
- discussions and votes should also be publicly viewable by everyone. To prevent government voting be influenced by posts like "ha ha this is gonna screw over x player so bad they will be furious
- include unlawfulls into oorp discussions
etc.
EDIT: Credit to @Karlotta for the above suggestions
Devs taking control would take away a great aspect of the RP side of the game. But it does seem to get top heavy rather easy. Some rules regarding this situation would be nice.
(09-26-2020, 10:09 PM)Jeuge Wrote: I guess the LibGov doesn't want to see LSF ships in Gallia.
So the LIA is independent of LibGov?
I mean, the OFs are led by the Gov or the Gov is led by the OFs ?
Ah I get it now. They want to do what intel guys do but its inconvenient for those in control, that should probably support them. They should be able to go to any house and hang out, especially non allied ones, observe...spy even! Although its still rather sad they control reality by forcing people to not acknowledge things you observe while cloaked. It killed a lot of potential for this game, and intel ID's in general.
All in all, there still isn't enough general pve things to do on the server. Especially for intel ID's, there's nothing to sabotage, no live targets to attack, can't cloak spy, can't make bases to claim territory or extend your range/zoi. Doing anything is frowned upon for some reason. I ran into this last year. This is one of the problems that comes from too much Dev control over story, and not enough of Dev's taking a stance that it is OK to do stuff, even if it incoveniences your opponents! I've rarely seen places that have such a high degree of pier pressure to psychologically accept giving up, or doing less.
(09-26-2020, 07:19 PM)Groshyr Wrote: Yesterday, on Issoudun, your actions were louder than words. Should you forget – I remind you: [LIA] just ran as soon as Enclave started to log. And it seems this is not the first case of such behaviour from your guys.
Sadly, so far, I had no enjoyable interaction with or against your guys, only endless facepalming. Adding you to LibGov would no harm, I guess, but will not make anything better for the house's government itself
I don't get where the only way to claim enjoyment of the game is for things to always result in the same old thing. Is there anything actually wrong with bugging out? Sounds like more 'it didn't cater to me so wah' logic that is just suppression. If intel ships are out scouting your territory, you log, they withdraw, that's a realistic win. Much of the game is like chess, and its about stance, denying territory/route access. Many situations occur from across systems, people playing cat and mouse, trying to cut each other off, waiting each other out. Or just escaping enemy patrols. Give some time, perhaps they'll come back with more ships and be ready for a fight.
wow, a game predicated on social interaction behaves like any environment where social interaction takes place? color me surprised
the irony is much of this reads like the same level of anti-bullying rhetoric in american schools, as though institutional policy is going to change the fact that people are just naturally going to exclude certain individuals and behave based on their own particular set of views, with the same level of obfuscated ineffectuality present
here's a hint, if you try to get rid of circlejerks in a community, new ones are gonna pop up elsewhere, or they're gonna be modified to cope (see: individual is technically part of a group, but is more or less an outlier, and the group will go against their desires out of spite) because fundamentally any community is going to be comprised of circlejerks, and the highest argument for actually doing away with player governments is so somebody, or a group of people, that does not understand the lore and the character of the government in question, willingly or unknowingly, doesn't drive it into the dirt with the same level of gusto as circuit city crashing and burning in 2008
tl;dr social politics are dumb and adding institutional policy to prevent them just makes the politics more draconian, this thread is a waste of keystrokes
User was banned for: They will know.
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(09-27-2020, 04:56 AM)Typrop Wrote: wow, a game predicated on social interaction behaves like any environment where social interaction takes place? color me surprised
the irony is much of this reads like the same level of anti-bullying rhetoric in american schools, as though institutional policy is going to change the fact that people are just naturally going to exclude certain individuals and behave based on their own particular set of views, with the same level of obfuscated ineffectuality present
here's a hint, if you try to get rid of circlejerks in a community, new ones are gonna pop up elsewhere, or they're gonna be modified to cope (see: individual is technically part of a group, but is more or less an outlier, and the group will go against their desires out of spite) because fundamentally any community is going to be comprised of circlejerks, and the highest argument for actually doing away with player governments is so somebody, or a group of people, that does not understand the lore and the character of the government in question, willingly or unknowingly, doesn't drive it into the dirt with the same level of gusto as circuit city crashing and burning in 2008
tl;dr social politics are dumb and adding institutional policy to prevent them just makes the politics more draconian, this thread is a waste of keystrokes
Thank you for laying bare your views, especially because they are unfortunately not as uncommon as one would think here, in era where humanity has managed to build societies that were able to split the atom, go to space, and permit instantaneous communication between individuals almost all over the globe. They are, without exageration, the reason why the island in lord of the flies, oceania in 1984, and the animal farm look like disneyland compared to disco.
I dont have enough time to adress the root of the problem which led you to conclusions like "social politics are dumb", but I will adress what seems to be your main point of "ciriclejerks will always exist".
Let me begin by saying I am not at all oposed to circle jerks in general.
You wanna take your group of friends that all think alike and dont give a toss about anyone outside your group, and do the best you can to destroy da enemy? By all means, give it your best shot. I have always oposed those here that say "noob groups and friend groups that arent integrated in disco only cause problems and should be forced to submit to the vets". That's draconian, toxic, counterproductive, stuck up, ignorant, and mean. Everyone should be able to have their circlejerk in which they can do what ever they want as long as they stick to the rules. Make your unoffical faction, stay an indy, and knock yourselves out. Declare war on 95% of the community, and fight with them to the best of your ability. Go for it, I'll defend your right to have that circlejerk with my last breath, and god knows I have done so many times in the past, to the ire of the circlejerk in power.
But what we actually DONT need is for Game MAsters, Admins, Developers, House Governments, and Official factions that have additional powers over people outside their circlejerk to become a circlejerk. Those guys can NOT go to war or disregard 95% of the community. If the reasons for that arent obvious to you, I point to what happened to Louis XVI, the brit in murica, and Muammar al-Gadfafi. And to the fact that those nations that undertook stringent measures to keep circle jerks out of their governments always overtook all the others in the long run.
Yes, circle jerks will always exist, and if you keep them out of one place they will jsut move to another. But there are definately certain places (governments, police, judges, juries, and bridge safety commissions) where it is ABSOLUTELY worth it to keep them down, if not out.
(09-27-2020, 04:56 AM)Typrop Wrote: wow, a game predicated on social interaction behaves like any environment where social interaction takes place? color me surprised
the irony is much of this reads like the same level of anti-bullying rhetoric in american schools, as though institutional policy is going to change the fact that people are just naturally going to exclude certain individuals and behave based on their own particular set of views, with the same level of obfuscated ineffectuality present
here's a hint, if you try to get rid of circlejerks in a community, new ones are gonna pop up elsewhere, or they're gonna be modified to cope (see: individual is technically part of a group, but is more or less an outlier, and the group will go against their desires out of spite) because fundamentally any community is going to be comprised of circlejerks, and the highest argument for actually doing away with player governments is so somebody, or a group of people, that does not understand the lore and the character of the government in question, willingly or unknowingly, doesn't drive it into the dirt with the same level of gusto as circuit city crashing and burning in 2008
tl;dr social politics are dumb and adding institutional policy to prevent them just makes the politics more draconian, this thread is a waste of keystrokes
Thank you for laying bare your views, especially because they are unfortunately not as uncommon as one would think here, in era where humanity has managed to build societies that were able to split the atom, go to space, and permit instantaneous communication between individuals almost all over the globe. They are, without exageration, the reason why the island in lord of the flies, oceania in 1984, and the animal farm look like disneyland compared to disco.
I dont have enough time to adress the root of the problem which led you to conclusions like "social politics are dumb", but I will adress what seems to be your main point of "ciriclejerks will always exist".
Let me begin by saying I am not at all oposed to circle jerks in general.
You wanna take your group of friends that all think alike and dont give a toss about anyone outside your group, and do the best you can to destroy da enemy? By all means, give it your best shot. I have always oposed those here that say "noob groups and friend groups that arent integrated in disco only cause problems and should be forced to submit to the vets". That's draconian, toxic, counterproductive, stuck up, ignorant, and mean. Everyone should be able to have their circlejerk in which they can do what ever they want as long as they stick to the rules. Make your unoffical faction, stay an indy, and knock yourselves out. Declare war on 95% of the community, and fight with them to the best of your ability. Go for it, I'll defend your right to have that circlejerk with my last breath, and god knows I have done so many times in the past, to the ire of the circlejerk in power.
But what we actually DONT need is for Game MAsters, Admins, Developers, House Governments, and Official factions that have additional powers over people outside their circlejerk to become a circlejerk. Those guys can NOT go to war or disregard 95% of the community. If the reasons for that arent obvious to you, I point to what happened to Louis XVI, the brit in murica, and Muammar al-Gadfafi. And to the fact that those nations that undertook stringent measures to keep circle jerks out of their governments always overtook all the others in the long run.
Yes, circle jerks will always exist, and if you keep them out of one place they will jsut move to another. But there are definately certain places (governments, police, judges, juries, and bridge safety commissions) where it is ABSOLUTELY worth it to keep them down, if not out.
Comparing Disco circlejerks with real life dictators the demise of whom was caused by a plethora of complex socio-economic and international phenomena is very insightful, bravo. Mentioning "Lord of the flies" which shows how a human society can degrade under pressure, the troubles of post-war kids in England, and how easily cults (be it religious or of a person) can be created is also veeeeeery to the point of circlejerking. About Oceania and "1984" I will not even waste the breath - the link to circlejerking on Disco is obvious. Same is illogical the "conclusion" that being in a circlejerk (which is nigh inevitable in a game with a community) leads to antagonising 95% of the other population - you are speaking here for the rest of 95% community that itself composes of multiple circlejerks, most of which do not give a damn about problems of inclusivity of another circlejerk. All in all, you haven't really refuted anything of Typrop's argumentation. As you aptly put it in some comment before: "non sequitur".
I totally agree with Typrop. People will group up based on their personal preferences, similarities in opinions/interests, or other reasons. It is natural. Imposing artificial institution to forcely open up certain circlejerks will eventually lead to creation of another circlejerk. Speaking of LIA - see no issue here, the LibGov had a vote democratically. Similarly to how political parties are registered, there are certain criteria in the heads of LibGov for evaluation of a faction when admitting it into the gov, and apparently LIA failed. Giving their lore a read, I can presume the reason.
(09-28-2020, 12:09 AM)Karlotta Wrote: Thank you for laying bare your views, especially because they are unfortunately not as uncommon as one would think here, in era where humanity has managed to build societies that were able to split the atom, go to space, and permit instantaneous communication between individuals almost all over the globe. They are, without exageration, the reason why the island in lord of the flies, oceania in 1984, and the animal farm look like disneyland compared to disco.
yes i am a grand force of regression in the human race
it's a video game
(09-28-2020, 12:09 AM)Karlotta Wrote: I dont have enough time to adress the root of the problem which led you to conclusions like "social politics are dumb", but I will adress what seems to be your main point of "ciriclejerks will always exist".
cool then you shouldn't mention what you aren't addressing because it can be made abundantly clear in work that you aren't addressing something by simply not addressing it, referring to the idea that you are not addressing something only works when the topic is contentious and there is a likely misconception applied to the work, typically derived either from the title or the topic
otherwise, yes, that is my main point, congratulations
(09-28-2020, 12:09 AM)Karlotta Wrote: Let me begin by saying I am not at all oposed to circle jerks in general.
and i did not mention that you were, though you seem to believe that there are certain "terribad" circlejerks that need to be removed
(09-28-2020, 12:09 AM)Karlotta Wrote: You wanna take your group of friends that all think alike and dont give a toss about anyone outside your group, and do the best you can to destroy da enemy? By all means, give it your best shot. I have always oposed those here that say "noob groups and friend groups that arent integrated in disco only cause problems and should be forced to submit to the vets". That's draconian, toxic, counterproductive, stuck up, ignorant, and mean. Everyone should be able to have their circlejerk in which they can do what ever they want as long as they stick to the rules. Make your unoffical faction, stay an indy, and knock yourselves out. Declare war on 95% of the community, and fight with them to the best of your ability. Go for it, I'll defend your right to have that circlejerk with my last breath, and god knows I have done so many times in the past, to the ire of the circlejerk in power.
you're the one putting words in my mouth chief, i only care about noobs when they start doing actively dumb things (a very frequent occurrence, mind) that are counterproductive to things like, i dunno, roleplay. you also wouldn't defend me in the slightest because you're already presenting me as an objectively antagonistic force and asserting that i just hate new people by default (which is verifiably false)
(09-28-2020, 12:09 AM)Karlotta Wrote: But what we actually DONT need is for Game MAsters, Admins, Developers, House Governments, and Official factions that have additional powers over people outside their circlejerk to become a circlejerk. Those guys can NOT go to war or disregard 95% of the community. If the reasons for that arent obvious to you, I point to what happened to Louis XVI, the brit in murica, and Muammar al-Gadfafi. And to the fact that those nations that undertook stringent measures to keep circle jerks out of their governments always overtook all the others in the long run.
yes and you don't realize that, among other things, you're talking about changes in government and not social cliques. governments are not, in fact, cliques on their own. cliques are frequently things like an aristocracy, a political party, or upper management in a company, and if you're looking for a more viable comparison i can point you to standard oil in the united states, and how anti-monopoly laws only constructed a system wherein standard broke into various companies (like exxonmobil) that now cooperate to achieve the same overall goal of controlling the market via special interest groups, lobbying, and other things most people don't hear about, because they want to. just as much as people want to play a video game with their friends and exclude things they don't like because that harms their own perceived fun.
(09-28-2020, 12:09 AM)Karlotta Wrote: Yes, circle jerks will always exist, and if you keep them out of one place they will jsut move to another. But there are definately certain places (governments, police, judges, juries, and bridge safety commissions) where it is ABSOLUTELY worth it to keep them down, if not out.
let me break this down for you really easy
person wants to do something (influence liberty government)
person joins group of people that want to do the something (joins libgov)
group is discouraged/rendered incapable of doing thing they want to do, or from removing something they do not wish to deal with via legislation (like, say, keeping certain people out of libgov due to theorized rules being put in place)
they find a loophole, or means to do the thing without raising suspicion, or just flat out become malicious (say, voting against a person to nullify their desired influence)
they keep trying to do thing (exclude the person from influencing libgov processes)
red tape just means people find a way around it, and again, this thread is a waste of keystrokes, particularly yours
User was banned for: They will know.
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(09-27-2020, 12:33 AM)Omicron Wrote: Did LIA asked to be part of the government to begin with? Not like Liberty isn't a silly place that should be avoided and cordoned out like Chernobyl anyway.
Galatians 4:16
I'll do something about my superiority complex when I cease to be superior.
"Whatever happened to catchin' a good old-fashioned passionate ass-whoopin and gettin' your shoes, coat, and your hat tooken?"
(09-27-2020, 12:33 AM)Omicron Wrote: Did LIA asked to be part of the government to begin with? Not like Liberty isn't a silly place that should be avoided and cordoned out like Chernobyl anyway.
Galatians 4:16
Maybe it would had a bigger impact if I actually read the bible. Alas, my question is still not answered