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+---- Thread: Fighter PvP guide (/showthread.php?tid=97001)
Fighter PvP guide - Yber - 04-13-2013
FEEDBACK
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First of all, no, this is not that kind of bragging thread. I don't consider myself a top pvper and I indeed can be wrong. Nevertheless, I've decided to post this "PvP guide" that includes pretty much everything I know. Criticism is welcome as much as contributions. I'll try to add more over time, and then again, this is my guide, yours may differ. Let's get started.
______________
0: The very basics.
There's a number of things that you should know before even reading the other sections; the main keys on your keyboard (that can be switched) and the weapon groups. As follows:
Thrusting: it's the middle point between the default non- cruising speed and the cruising speed itself. To enable it, hold tabulation by default.
Engine kill: EK on as shortcut. This key basically makes you keep moving on a direction on the same speed that you had before starting it while being able to move the cockpit freely. To sum up, cuts off the engines. To enable the EK, press Z by default. For a better and more detailed explanation- Credits to whoever that made that page.
Strafes: movements up, down, left and right. The horizontal strafes are usually mapped by default, but verticals are not. Take a look on your "Options- Controls" menu to settle them.
Reverse: sort of strafe, but backwards. If you hold it, your speed will inmediatly change to -15, a full stop. To enable it, press X by default.
Weapon groups: as you might notice, people tend to use different guns (shieldbusters and hullbusters), using them to take the shield and then switching to the hullbusters only to take over the, how redundant, hull. This can be done by setting your weapon groups in the Controls menu. For a greater enlightment- Credits to Stedman75.
Adviced groups are:
First one; all your guns excluding the torpedo slot.
Second one: hullbusters excluding, then again, the torpedo slot.
Three: shieldbusters if you use a Cruise Disruptor. If you don't, you may put here your mini razor group or all the hullbusters including the torpedo slot.
Four: if you had a torpedo gun (such as a mini razor) and you put it on the thrid group, put the shieldbusters here.
Once the weapon groups are done, you can set them to the keys you like most.
Chainfire: when you're not quite sure if you're going to hit with a single salvo, you can fire your guns one after another to create a chain of shots. This is what chainfire is. To use it, press the keys assigned to the different weapons quickly and then hold the firing buttom, should be on the mouse by default. As far as you press it, your guns will keep the effect. However, lag spikes might aswell ruin it. On a fight
My key layout: Tabulator for thruster, X for EK, Z for reverse, W A S D for the different strafes, T, Y, U, I for the weapon groups, Q for torpedoes, E for mines, R for cruise disruptors, C for countermeasures. The ship speed is set on the mouse wheel. Note: I'm left handed.
Now then, to the pvp itself:
1: What ship am I flying?
Eg: Sabre.
Eg 2: Eagle.
Eg 3: Wraith/ touketsu.
2: What's good about my ship?
Eg: Messy hitbox, 7 guns forward, higher strafe speed and lower mass. Okish powercore and armor, wide arcs.
Eg 2: Quickest turning stats wise, 6 guns on any arc, shape from the sides.
Eg 3: High powercore and hull, far above average turning speed, tiny hitbox. Slightly lower mass? Not quite sure, that's only a feeling I had.
3: What's bad about my ship?
Eg: Turning is kind of slow, easy to hit from above.
Eg 2: Hitbox's wide. When in front of someone, dodging is a must. The hull is low aswell as the powercore. Upper sides are terribly easy to hit.
Eg 3: 5 guns forward, in touketsu's case, 3 class 10 spots "only".
4: What guns am I using?
Eg: Codenames 2.0. I can do hell a lot of damage in 1 hit, so I don't need to face my opponent. I can just hit and run, sniping shots.
Eg 2: 8.33 refire rate. A single hit is like a grain; by that line of thoughts, a rain of hits will make a mountain. When using these, try to keep the opponent on the screen and shoot a lot. You have to keep hitting in order to win, which isn't easy at all. Major turning or boxing is adviced.
Eg 3: now we're on a nutcase. Do I use 2 debilitators and 3 hullbusters? Or 4 hullbusters and 1 deb? What about full hullbusters? This completely depends on your style. I personally make the advantage out of a full hullbuster loadout: 5 2.00 (4 codenames, 1 faction gun) means more damage than 4 codenames on any other ship. Other people simply prefer 3 higher refired guns and 2 debilitators. Usage is pretty much the same as above on either case.
5: How can I make this ship and layout work?
Eg: I got a lower mass, thus my aceleration is faster, and adding the higher strafe speed, boxing is a pretty good tactic. I can also bounce while dodging to snipe shots. I don't want to keep facing my enemy because that will allow him to hit more often, which might aswell force me to waste energy on extra shots.
Eg 2: Yes! I've the famous 8.33 eagle. What now? Now you gotta turn. Really, keep turning again and again, even if you don't hit that much. Don't be greedy when damaging; a 8.33 eagle is easy to tank as far as you can hit back. Slowdeath by flashpoints is how I call it. Get around the guy, avoid the front. If you're boxed, make circles using the vertical strafes and don't be too close to his tail; nukes make wonders.
Eg 3: Point one, aim. Point two, dodge. That's pretty much it. The only real drawback of these ships is the lack of a sixth gun, but it's compensated by the other stats. On a 2.00 wraith/ touketsu, dodge and snipe. On a higher refire, keep the enemy on the screen and take special care when dodging, don't let people outgun you and maintain your style over theirs. Fly with personality, in short.
6: Okay, I know how I wanna fly my ship, but I lack the tools.
Eg: When you know what you wanna do, you gotta apply the basic controls (Engine Kill, Reverse, Strafe keys, etc) and the basic techniques (Jousting, dogfighting: Boxing, Sliding, Earlyturning, tactician)
Jousting: Probably the most basic technique. Not really that hard; just charge the opponent hoping to hit and not eat ammo based weapons such as nuclear mines. Only adviced for human aimbots.
Boxing mechanic: Stay on 0 speed. Press the EK buttom (engine kill) and tab your reverse. Then press strafes one by one and not too quickly or you won't move. You should be going backwards at -15 speed while strafing.
Sliding: Press the EK buttom, then thrust around. Everytime you stop thrusting you'll be on EK again, thus you can turn and shoot at the same time. Quite simple and overused.
Earlyturning: turning before the opponent to shoot his back. Works wonders on people who use long EKs. You can apply it as you want: EK, thrusting, etc.
Tactician: learning all the basic techniques said above and making your own style that will define your way to pvp. What works for someone might don't for others. It's not just "skill", but tactics and their counters, remember.
7: Commonly used mechanics/tactics.
Eg: Anchor turn mechanic: when turning, reverse, press the opposite strafe to the direction you're turning and tab thrust, and keep repeating the process. It'll make you harder to hit if the opponent is behind. On a fight
Eg: Catching turns: when the opponent stays an early turn, but too far away, sit and shoot him wile he tries to get around. It's quite simple, he'll EK in front of you and you'll only need to aim. On a fight- Credits to Beedo from FLU.
Eg: Forward mine: when an opponent is coming straight to you, drop a nuclear mine/screamer/whatever. It'll go towards the opponent. Most useful against light fighters. On a fight.
Eg: Switches: when closing to an opponent, don't charge him. Move from side to side while sniping shots to dodge and aim at the same time. Very simple, too. I advice mixing EK and thrusts when doing it. On a fight- Credits to Achilies.
Eg: Edge firing: use the edge of your screen to fire, literally. The hitting chance will increase greatly while keeping yourself in the maximum turning speed. On a fight- Credits to Tachyon. Another example
Eg: Straight torpedo: ammo based guns and torpedoes don't usually track in discovery. This is due to a number of reasons that doesn't really have anything to do with this thread. What matter is that, so far, there's a more or less secure way to make them work When the opponent is coming straight to you, box. As he gets close, thrust, fire the torpedo and reverse again. It is likely to hit him, even with lags. On a fight
Eg: Curved torpedo: A variant of the straight torpedo that doesn't work that good due to the lags. You mostly can't fire a torpedo while being on an engine kill, thus it's tougher. However, while thrusting (and turning) you can fire a torpedo and change its direction with the mouse. As it sounds to can make one that was about to miss, hit. On a fight
Eg: Thruster flight: Honestly messy for me. It's more a style itself, as boxing, rather than a "technique". The general idea is moving only with your thruster, except when you need room, moment for an EK, or when you are about to earlyturn someone. The main trick is on the acceleration (I myself use the mouse wheel), which allows you to make smaller/wider circles, on a way you earn more or less angle upon the enemy. Strafing is the key for dodging. Trying the outter/inner strafes while thrusting around and turning with it is the only way to realize. There's no real guide for a correct thruster flight, mechanics aside. Once the hang of the mouse wheel/thruster/angles is taken, the instict does the rest.
8: How should I aim?
In discovery, due to the crosshair making shots track, there are 2 kinds of aiming, crosshair- based and ship- based.
Eg: Crosshair: Point your guns at the crosshair and try to keep them there. Even if some shots miss due to a weird hitbox (like a titan) the "perfectly centered" shots have a major full hit chance. On a fight
Eg: Instict: Point your guns at the enemy's ship ignoring the crosshair. On a fight
Eg: Positioning: Hitting a ship isn't just about having a perfect crosshair aim, not even about being the best at hitting by instict. Ships have larger and smaller sides, above, and below, too. Moving on a way that will allow you to take a sight on these spots is trully important, as much as forviding your opponent to do so. Know your ship and act in consequence, see how his ship is, and find the way throught it. On a fight- Credits to Parrot. I'm your number 1 fan.
9: How can I train my aim?
There's a number of ways to do it, and none of them is the best (from my own view). As there are different aiming types, there are different training types.
Eg: Crosshair training: (1) Get some cheap cargo in the nearest base, drop it on space piece by piece, and try to hit them with your guns while making maneuvers. Rockfields with floating ore and such work, too. (2) PvP against light fighters with guns only. A pain in the butt, yeah, that's why it's good.
Eg: Instict training: Aiming without looking at the crosshair is contra-nature, so the best way is to not have one. Go to connecticut, choose one of the buoys, and try to hit it while turning. Works with any non-killable object, the smaller, the better.
Eg: Overall training: There's no easy way to train your aim. PvP is probably the best for an overall improvement. However, you can use different ways. I use to train my aim with class 8 guns or light fighters; you can't miss if you want to win, so you WILL hit. My favourite loadouts for this are 5 class 8 krakens/2 class 8 debs for a sabre and 2 magma hammers/3 debs for a scimitar.
10: Counters.
If there are movements, there are counters. Every single thing you can do can be rendered useless by your opponent. These are a few examples.
CD'ing engine kills: When an opponent is on a "faster" ship, or merely he's being quicker, you can fire a CD, because these cut engine kill off. In the worst case, he'll find himself standing still. In the best, he'll be showing his tiny butt to you for a few salvos. I personally consider this cheap, but hey, it works. Credits to pancakes.
Antibox mining: So you buddy think you can simply stand still and outdamage me? No, you can't. This one is easy, really. Stand in front of him and drop a nuclear mine, as the "forward mine" one. However if you don't feel like risking that much, turning on an EK or thrust around him and dropping a mine on his face will do just fine. He'll have to move as at least tail effect. If not, he'll just eat it. On a fight- Credits to Beedo from FLU.
CD defensive usage: CDs are just as offensive as defensive. If you happen to have one mounted, use it if you think that the opponent is about to drop a mine. If you think that he's about to fire a torp, use it. If you think that he's about to do anything that you can't counter with your guns, use it. I could continue, you get the idea. CDs destroy most of ammo based weapons pretty much instantly, damaged anything on the explosion ratio, including the owner.
Countermeasure usage: These ones are main, even despite looking like an old vanilla wreck. They'll render missiles and torpedos useless, and it's quite a bit of help against mine + CD combos. As you fight someone with missiles, drop a CM when you think he's about to use them, and after he's done/is doing so, drop a second one. The hitting chances are slim once mastered. About CDs, on the same moment that you see a mine, drop one. If the opponent uses a CD, it's a high chance to miss and spin around, breaking the combo. If you see/listen to the CD being fired, drop another one as in the missile situation. Countermeasures that have got a long living time once dropped are what we're looking for here.
Mine + CD combo: Timing is all about this one. And lag, too. As said above, CDs blow up most of ammo based weapons, including mines. That doesn't mean you can only blow up the opponent's mines, but yours too. Drop a nuclear mine near where the unlucky guy will pass, and as he gets close, CD it. The blast will damage him, probably less than a full mine hit, but everything counts. Some people are really good at it.
I wouldn't say this one is a counter movement, but it works for pretty much anything, thus I'm lazy to make another section.
11: Groupfights.
The main objective on a duel is killing the opponent, which differs from a groupfight. A a general guideline, focus on dodging and be aware of your environment. Quad nukes happen. I consider proper to divide this section in two overall parts:
When you're the target: focus on dodging, and don't attempt to forwardnuke or charge someone without your shield up. Here you want to survive as long as possible so your buddies can outdamage the opponents. If you're able to dodge and deal extra damage, great. Mouse dodging (moving your mouse around the screen) always works better than strafe dodging or one-turn dodging. Multiturns (using more than a single thrust/reverse to change your direction) mixed with anchor turns do just fine. Mine tricks can give a very sad surprise to the guys behind you. On a fight
When you're targeting: You ought to focus on 3 things. One, the pink chat calling targets. Two, the nearby area (we don't want a quad nuke to finish us off). Three, dealing damage. Consider that there's someone being shot at, and you have to make his time worth. At this point, what matters is instict aiming rather than crosshair aiming. You'll find out, in fact, that with time, both turn up to be the same: your hand will move alone to hit the target. Shamefully, I've no proper video about this.
12: Morals and behaviour.
Nobody cares if you gank someone. I mean, what can he do about it, appart of complaining and/or feeding feedbacks/ embarrasing threads? Nothing, no real drawbacks. And you can always say "it's tactical superiority!". Not gonna get on that.
However, you ought to remember that by taking things easy, you are not going to improve. You won't learn anything and you won't get anything out of it other than a horrid environment everytime you log.
May I remind you: you'll get what you give.
13: General thoughts.
If something doesn't work, try variants or completely different movements, even if you use "that EK by inertia". Swapping styles is good. Addapting is good. Stucking is bad. Have some imagination and remember that it doesn't matter how many times you die in pvp, you can only get better. Don't overdo yourself and don't get frustrated, there're guys that have been pvping before you pirated bought your Freelancer CD. With time you'll be as good or even better than the best.
______________
-Added the difference between dogfighting and jousting.
-Added the 8.33 refire rate example.
-Added the usage of ships with a smaller amount of guns, such as wraith and touketsu.
-Added my vision of the eagle.
-Added the torpedo usage.
-Added the difference between crosshair and instict aiming..
-Added edge firing.
-Added the basics.
-Added antistuff section.
-Added the usage of CDs and mine + CD combo.
-Added the CM usage.
-Added aim training.
-Added positioning.
-Added groupfights.
-Added thruster flight.
FAQ:
Q: I want something more specific, are there other guides that are more detailed about boxing or sliding?
A: Yes:
How to XTF: Sliding
How to XTF: Boxing
Q: Why do you have a nomad gun on your sabre?
A: I switched the kraken turret effect to show and hit as a nomad gun. Exclusively a visual effect and a personal preference.
Q: Why do you have that space on the sides of your screen?
A: Because I'm using widescreen, a legal modification that allows a wider angle. To get it just run Discovery with Launchpad on a 16:9 resolution.
Q: Why so you use weapons with different speed?
A: The ingame crosshair is calculated with the average gun speed, which in my case is 650 ms. The heavy hitters will still achieve damage if aimed corretly, krakens are useful against the most common shield and the prometheus blows up mines.
Q: Can you add X video about Y matter?
A: Sure thing, I'll give it a shoot if I have free time. Just drop it on a comment or PM me.
Q: Can you teach me ingame?
A: I'll attempt to anytime that I'm playing and I happen to meet someone who wishes to. Keep in mind that I'm not a top pvper, that I do commit mistakes and that my flight style is strongly biased. My skype is spanishsoldier90, you might add me in order to ask for conn sessions. We've got a skype group chat for that.
Q: How does one join XTF?
A: You must be recruited by a member. Prove to be active enough and the senate will take a look.
Q: Are you Yber?
A: Lol.
Feedback:
All the corrections, comments, and questions not directly related to fighter pvp should remain there, aswell as complaints and suggestions about lesson's methods.
All the requests, videos showing "how to", questions directly related to pvp and tricks and tips that may be added, should be posted here or sent via PM.
You get the drill.
Have a nice blue message.
IF THIS DIDN'T HELP YOU:
Tachyon's youtube channel
RE: Fighter PvP guide - Yber - 04-14-2013
On these videos I'll attempt to record the fights against different styles to show, or try to do so, how to succesfully adapt to someone in the middle of a fight. This means there will be a dominant flight style (strongly biased by my own way to pvp) aswell as minor changes. These are videos against people who mostly don't perform a single movement or tactic, thus, you won't see "only boxing" or "only sliding". It's meant to show how pvp looks like.
Note: I'm always looking for people to give me a hand when making videos.
Anti missiles:
1
Antiboxing (new), anti earlyturning.
1 2
Sliding, antisliding
3
Antijousting.
1
Anchor turn, close style
4
Titan mix.
1
Bretonia mix
1
Class vs class (eagle)
1
Vs Floyd
2
Guardian PvP
1
Insurgent PvP
1
Generic fights
1 2 3
Bomber PvP subsection:
Roc:
1 2
Cougar:
1
RE: Fighter PvP guide - Valhalla Sr. - 04-14-2013
Well, if you wish to learn from the start and engage some serious PvP, and actually LEARN from it, then this is your guide. +1
RE: Fighter PvP guide - aerelm - 04-14-2013
Your guide lacks the very basic definitions of PvP terms, and lacks a proper BBCoding to make it easier to read. I'd say this would more likely confuse a beginner PvPer than help them in any way. Despite the good effort put into this guide, I'd say it needs a full rewrite to become actually useful for beginners, rather than the "Reminder to average PvPers" sort of thing it currently is. If it was up to me, I would've started with defining the very basics of PvP, like what is reverse thrusting or engine kill in the first place.
Also, you may want to take a look at this: http://discoverygc.com/wiki/Flight_Tactics - That's been there since 4.84 and hasn't been updated much since, but it serves as a good example of how basic a guide needs to be to serve the purpose of educating beginner PvPers.
That said, I can't help but to feel a lot of points mentioned in your guide are strongly biased toward your own flying style, which is not a bad thing per se, but getting a few other people to contribute to the guide from a different viewpoint would help in carving out a more unbiased guide for beginners to follow.
RE: Fighter PvP guide - Tachyon - 04-14-2013
Lacks thruster techniques and anti-box tricks.
Reminds me to continue writing my own pvpguide o.o
RE: Fighter PvP guide - Salmin - 04-14-2013
Good job mate.
Vote for the move into important threads.
RE: Fighter PvP guide - Sapo - 04-14-2013
This is fantastic, great job.
Kudos to you from a pvp noob, your effort is much appreciated, thankyou!
RE: Fighter PvP guide - Zynth - 04-14-2013
Add a part on "How to group weapons" because really, it isn't really intuitive. At least make it a bit more noob friendly that way.
RE: Fighter PvP guide - Mlone - 04-14-2013
Thanks for guide, but i still dont understand how to kill order fighter at my Odin with codenames. It has very good armor, six guns, and i cant trap in him with my codenames...
RE: Fighter PvP guide - SeaFalcon - 04-14-2013
(04-14-2013, 04:14 PM)Yber Wrote: I'll make a video, I guess, I can't really explain how to make weapon groups.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD1r29iW3tU