Ok... Myself and another player had a disagreement in game regarding the legality of a capship cruising to catch up with a thrusting fighter.
As far as I am aware it counts as re-engagment, the chasing player engaged cruise first, which constituse fleeing (under a very odd side effect of the rule) and therefore him then dropping out of cruise to shoot me is re-engagement.
I made this thread just to make this more public, and more apparent (because frankly getting a BHG BS cruise to catch your thruster-fleeing unioner eagle isn't fun).
Yeh I am a bit annoyed at the moment, but I'm sure it will pass.
Not gunna say who it was as I don't like to go after people, but we have had a conversation about it (after I very rashly went oorp in system about it... I feel pretty bad about that) and we simply disagreed over the matter.
So simply put, can I have an admin state the official line here?
The rules say that engaging cruise means that you're fleeing, no matter what. That makes no sense in some situations like trying to catch up to someone who is fleeing, but until the rule is rewritten just don't do it.
Well even Xoria sanctioned himself for that...
Why is this not clear?
Because people don't read or don't understand the rules, then buy a big ol' ship that has limitations (like no thruster) and assume that anything is good, so long as it gets them a kill.
I think the rules are pretty clear on that, but I've noticed from reading over past submitted XA acceptance tests that the re-engagement rules are unclear to a lot of players.. Maybe in the next revision of the rules, they should add something that addresses it? Maybe something like this?
Da Rulz Wrote:5.6 If a player engages cruise engine or docks during a PvP fight, this player is considered fleeing. This includes cruising to catch up to a player who is escaping on thrusters. The fleeing player must leave and may not re-enter the system where the fight took place with any of the characters on his/her account(s) while the enemy (player or players involved in the fight) remains in the system, but no more than 4 hours.
I think that would clear things up nicely.
' Wrote:I think the rules are pretty clear on that, but I've noticed from reading over past submitted XA acceptance tests that the re-engagement rules are unclear to a lot of players.. Maybe in the next revision of the rules, they should add something that addresses it? Maybe something like this?
I think that would clear things up nicely.
Yes it would - i for one am in favour of a complete rewriting of the server rules to clear up a bundle of ambiguities and to reflect the legality of faction and individual RP rules
The problem is that after the fighter went some distace from the capship, it is fleeing as well....
and there is no fixed distance in the rules.
Basically if he thrustst more than 5k from you I'd say you can hit cruise to catch up.. since he's already fleeing.
The obvious loophole is that if there are 2 caps one can still be next to him while you are more than 5k :$
when a fighter thrusts away - there is NO way to tell when its retreating and when its not. - that is purely up to interpretation. - leaving weaponrange is not fleeing as the weaponrange is not exactly long.... and fighters easily leave each others weaponrange when they re jousting. a distance of 5k is hard to enforce, too - should we report someone that went up to 5001 distance? - is it just or unjust. - unmistakenly a distance of 10k+ IS retreating - cause it leaves the close radar range.... but whats the point of chasing then - cause you can hardly chase what you cannot see.
experience with all players ( no matter of faction, playerfaction, experienced or new player ) tell that people catch up when they "think" its appropriate or to their advantage. players catch up, even when a buddy of them is still in very close chase ( like a gunboat and a fighter vs. a fighter - the fighter will stay well in range of the other fighter, the gunboat is left behind [something the single player should always try to do ] - the gunboat always cruises to catch up )
there are two easy way to get out of that dilemma. - either allow cruise anyway for everyone at any time. or not allowing it at ANY time for ANY reason, including to chase a player. until an engagement is solved for certain. that would leave cruise for travelling purpose only. - players wouldn t even be allowed to cruise away to retreat.
any other rule about it complicates things. - people will never adhere to the rule not to cruise to catch up, cause its subjective to determine when someone is retreating and when he is not. - this is not a problem of factions or experience.
just recently i had a fight against a gunboat and a fighter ( me in a fighter ) - i retreated from the very start, as it made no sense even trying to fight. - i got away from the gunboat easily by thrusting - the fighter stayed in range. the gunboat caught up over half a dozen times cruising and getting into range with blazing guns ( about each time i reached 2k range to it )
was i retreating? yes - was he allowed to use cruise? not by the rules. was the rule affected by the fact that the other fighter ( grouped with the gunboat ) stayed at a steady 300 distance from me? - the whole incident occured against experienced players in established factions.
the whole cruise rule is rubbish - i think we said it several times before and can say it several time again. - in my opinion it causes more trouble than the fact that capital ships that are NOT CDable by even train CDs can shield run ( which are only like 2 or 3 that are too large to be CDed ). - if thats still the main reason we have it.... .
its not up to us to change it - its upon the admin team to look into the rule and evaluate its effect on reports, sanctions and gameplay.
I'd agree with the cruise rule being taken out, only if capships have their cruise charge time increased, with the rate depending on their size. Since we are nearing 4.85, it would make sense to do something like that now.
' Wrote:The problem is that after the fighter went some distace from the capship, it is fleeing as well....
and there is no fixed distance in the rules.
Basically if he thrustst more than 5k from you I'd say you can hit cruise to catch up.. since he's already fleeing.
The obvious loophole is that if there are 2 caps one can still be next to him while you are more than 5k :$
In this instance I was engaged in a running fight with a bomber at the same time. As the bomber culd keep up and the battleship could not, (yes... a battleship and a cruiser came to deal with a hessian in an odin and my in my unioner eagle, should I be flattered?) the engagement didn't end as far as I am concerned. the battleship was about 3 or 4 k from me when it engaged cruise and started gaining on me.