I did even mention that I'm aware it's hated by a lot of people, but it does mean that people will restrict how they use them, it will be much more dangerous to fly one outside of your factions zoi for example. People will still use their caps just much less frequently, yes people will be logging traders more, to make sure they can afford to replace their capital assets if they lose them, how are either of those a bad thing?
If caps were lost on death, I'd fly them much less often but I wouldn't cry that I lost a cap even if I was ganked PROVIDED that it was the same basic rules for everyone. As for how do people get better, that's what Conn is for.
(02-26-2018, 02:54 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]It works like lynchings work too.
If he chose to stick to his guns he probably liked the thrill of people hunting him to to get him deleted. Not everyone is like that.
The Capital ship has abandoned it's post / Defected / gone rogue, what other method is there for dealing with them other than elimination? They don't have any allied shipyards to seek refuge at to give them the repairs, supplies and resources they need,
(02-26-2018, 02:54 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]And no, you can't RP yourself out of a situation if the people who want to lynch you don't want it.
Send a comm, asking for forgiveness, go from there, and eventually have your KoS status removed? It's not hard to think of ways to get creative.
(02-26-2018, 03:36 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe Lyth, Silverlight, and Thyrzul should lead by example and delete their caps next time they explode, so the foolish community can understand how positive it is.
Surely positive things like people giving fair fights, boosts in activity and great RP, and more boosts from them trading to build new caps will start happening everywhere.
Alright, I'll delete my Core cap next time it leaves it's ZoI when it's not supposed to
(02-26-2018, 03:58 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 02:54 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]It works like lynchings work too.
If he chose to stick to his guns he probably liked the thrill of people hunting him to to get him deleted. Not everyone is like that.
The Capital ship has abandoned it's post / Defected / gone rogue, what other method is there for dealing with them other than elimination? They don't have any allied shipyards to seek refuge at to give them the repairs, supplies and resources they need,
They have Freeports. Or will you delete every cap that docks on anything else than their own shipyard too?
(02-26-2018, 03:58 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 02:54 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]And no, you can't RP yourself out of a situation if the people who want to lynch you don't want it.
Send a comm, asking for forgiveness, go from there, and eventually have your KoS status removed? It's not hard to think of ways to get creative.
Yesterday I was asked by two people affiliated with a faction neutral/friendly to mine (who's leader had previously expressed disapproval of something I oorp said in flood) to drop all cargo or dai on the grounds that it was impolite of me to ask them why they stopped me. My character had never been pirated by anyone for months or years before, but this happened 2 days after I revealed that it was my character on the forum.
A few months ago, the leader of a faction that docks on bases belonging to my faction, and which is an IRP "unofficial ally" to my faction, forbade me from doing 3 things that my faction does by lore, although I did pretty much everything for him except give him the password to my base, unless I give him the password to my base. When I didnt, he proceeded to basically ally with his factions worst enemy and let them do the things he told me I couldnt do, doing pretty much 100% the opposite of what lore is.
The moral of both stories is that players will declare players they don't like KoS and their friends the grand-masters of RP, no matter how good their "enemy"'s RP is and how crappy their own and their friends RP is.
(02-26-2018, 03:58 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 03:36 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe Lyth, Silverlight, and Thyrzul should lead by example and delete their caps next time they explode, so the foolish community can understand how positive it is.
Surely positive things like people giving fair fights, boosts in activity and great RP, and more boosts from them trading to build new caps will start happening everywhere.
Alright, I'll delete my Core cap next time it leaves it's ZoI when it's not supposed to
Exactly.
"when it's not supposed to"
Because you're the one who decides who is "supposed to" do what.
(02-26-2018, 05:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 03:58 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: [ -> ]Alright, I'll delete my Core cap next time it leaves it's ZoI when it's not supposed to
Exactly.
"when it's not supposed to"
Because you're the one who decides who is "supposed to" do what.
That again starts to sound like everybody should have limitless and consequence-free control over their own decisions to a point it again defeats the purpose of a good few features of this game. Like, who are devs and admins, IDs, faction info pages, etc to tell me who I am, what to do, to limit me into a single lore, boundaries, set of goals of a single faction? I fly my ship wherever I want, I do whatever I want, fekk the system. Right?
Deleting ships sounds like a good idea, I'll start deleting ours wherever they fly outside of our ZoI once I'll be able to do the same with all Council ships in the game. Like, why would we be the only ones to uphold RP standards? Oh wait, I forgot, because we are the official faction. Too bad that detail is always forgotten somehow, every time the subject of differences between officials and indies is being discussed. It's always just about elitism, powermongering, bias and conspiracies, even if half of that is far from the truth for a good few years now.
Don't worry, no [C]-CLN- tagged Redemption will leave our ZoI defined on our ID with my consent without consequences. I can guarantee that, at least regarding officials.
(02-26-2018, 05:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]They have Freeports. Or will you delete every cap that docks on anything else than their own shipyard too?
Do you really think dinky little Freeports can service i.e Liberty Dreadnoughts? A bit of a desperate point.
(02-26-2018, 05:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]Yesterday I was asked by two people affiliated with a faction neutral/friendly to mine (who's leader had previously expressed disapproval of something I oorp said in flood) to drop all cargo or dai on the grounds that it was impolite of me to ask them why they stopped me. My character had never been pirated by anyone for months or years before, but this happened 2 days after I revealed that it was my character on the forum.
A few months ago, the leader of a faction that docks on bases belonging to my faction, and which is an IRP "unofficial ally" to my faction, forbade me from doing 3 things that my faction does by lore, although I did pretty much everything for him except give him the password to my base, unless I give him the password to my base. When I didnt, he proceeded to basically ally with his factions worst enemy and let them do the things he told me I couldnt do, doing pretty much 100% the opposite of what lore is.
The moral of both stories is that players will declare players they don't like KoS and their friends the grand-masters of RP, no matter how good their "enemy"'s RP is and how crappy their own and their friends RP is.
How can you be so sure that those players were out to get you? You base your interaction on a conspiracy theory, not that those players may simply want to pirate you. If I get shot up by an Order pilot, I don't assume it's because they hate me and do it as part of an ooRP grudge; it's just normal PvP.
Your second example is a bit hard to understand and unless you can actually link it or provide further context I can't really make sense of it. Still, other factions can't really impose anything on indies that aren't a part of their NPC faction.
You take two, personal, encounters and treat that as the norm. Madness. It's like saying all Muslims are terrorists.
(02-26-2018, 05:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly.
"when it's not supposed to"
Because you're the one who decides who is "supposed to" do what.
Uh no, you're wrong. As stated many times, which is a central point of this thread, The Core official ID, not us on a whim, permits us to take Capitals outside of our ZoI, unlike the indie ID which cannot. It's the same with the Order IDs. It's IDs that should decide what people can and can't do within the scope of roleplay sense and logic. And I'm arguing that there should at least perhaps be a hard limit applied because it works so well in enforcing this RP and logic, as time and time again it's been shown that indies are abusing this. If not, deal with them through other means such as applying consequences that provide freedom whilst also still fitting with logical roleplay progression.
(02-26-2018, 05:40 PM)Thyrzul Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 05:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 03:58 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: [ -> ]Alright, I'll delete my Core cap next time it leaves it's ZoI when it's not supposed to
Exactly.
"when it's not supposed to"
Because you're the one who decides who is "supposed to" do what.
That again starts to sound like everybody should have limitless and consequence-free control over their own decisions to a point it again defeats the purpose of a good few features of this game. Like, who are devs and admins, IDs, faction info pages, etc to tell me who I am, what to do, to limit me into a single lore, boundaries, set of goals of a single faction? I fly my ship wherever I want, I do whatever I want, fekk the system. Right?
No, not right.
Every single sentence there is wrong, and especially the sarcastic meanings you're trying to give them are wrong.
Nothing I said means everyone is consequence-free or free for all decisions. I don't fly my ship where ever I want, I don't do what ever I want, and I never asked for me or anyone else to be allowed to do that. Boy, you shoulda seen me talking about factions like Keepers, Phantoms and some admins who did exactly that while they were still around. What I asked for before and now is to keep the environment fair and fun for everyone.
Even though I never really said or implied "who are admins to tell me what to do", I should probably point out to you that in fact, it's not the admins job to tell me what to do. Their job is to write rules and make sure everyone follows them, and to stick to that instead of telling people what to do individually. Not sure why you keep mentioning devs, because neither is it their job to tell me what to do, nor can I remember a dev telling me or anyone else what to do.
The main issue here however, is that its not YOUR job to tell SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO what to do. I don't think I've even ever taken any of my ships out of their ZOI except for picking up a piece of equipment, and I have no plans to do it in the future.
The most comical thing about all this is that right now, you and Lyth are the ones who want to go against something that devs/admins decided, not me.
I've been avoiding chiming in on this discussion because I'm part of and lead a faction which has no ZoI restriction and various light capitals that can be seen pretty much anywhere from the heart of Bretonia to Omicron Lost.
I've always felt that there's certain things people do with their caps that just don't make sense. The main point from one of your examples is the fact a Redemption or even the Council would take a remote interest in any operations in the Edge Worlds. This is a very distant spot from the Gallic war front. Go be revolutionaries like you're supposed to. What reason is there for the Council to go to Delta? What do they have to gain? It's obvious out there that the factions aren't interested in supporting them against Gallia nor are they supporting Gallia against them. They kind of have their own thing going on.
How did it get there? You have a seriously large hole in terms of travelling through over a dozen unfriendly/unlawful systems to reach that point. You really think a lone Battleship could make it without Fighter escorts? Realistically it shouldn't. Not one that big.
My main gripe has always been the oddball House Military warship that shows up on an unofficial expedition. If it was done correctly and with moderation, I'd love to see the rare expeditionary force deploy to the edge, and watch it get subsequently battered around by all the people who do not want them there. I've always had an issue with Outcast caps in Liberty. I strongly feel that the OC ID should have a line that prevents them from using capitals in Liberty, and in exchange the HF Indie ID should get Arbiter access at the cost of what the ID used to say - Not being able to leave their zone of influence with capital ships.
Though I appreciate freedom. I appreciate that I have the opportunity to actually go anywhere with the handful of caps we have, but we exercise moderation. This is something many of these cases do not involve. There's no moderation in what lengths people are willing to go to in order to get their big ship somewhere it shouldn't be, and a blanket restriction shouldn't be the solution, because that's going to take away the freedom players have to choose and pursue their own avenues of roleplay.
Granted, some avenues shouldn't be pursued. There are various instances where someone needs to stop and take into consideration just how ridiculous what they're doing is.
There's also the matter of ID lines. Right now, very few factions can actually do anything with caps outside of a ZoI. They're already severely restricted in terms of operational capacity, and that needs to be outlined so that it's clear that people wanting to go somewhere they shouldn't know there's nothing they can do other than hope they get shot, which is not the kind of attitude people should have.
(02-26-2018, 06:05 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 05:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]They have Freeports. Or will you delete every cap that docks on anything else than their own shipyard too?
Do you really think dinky little Freeports can service i.e Liberty Dreadnoughts? A bit of a desperate point.
I dunno man, they were able to service all my ships just fine, except the blue ones. If they can't, maybe it should be made so that they... can't?
(02-26-2018, 06:05 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 05:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]Yesterday I was asked by two people affiliated with a faction neutral/friendly to mine (who's leader had previously expressed disapproval of something I oorp said in flood) to drop all cargo or dai on the grounds that it was impolite of me to ask them why they stopped me. My character had never been pirated by anyone for months or years before, but this happened 2 days after I revealed that it was my character on the forum.
A few months ago, the leader of a faction that docks on bases belonging to my faction, and which is an IRP "unofficial ally" to my faction, forbade me from doing 3 things that my faction does by lore, although I did pretty much everything for him except give him the password to my base, unless I give him the password to my base. When I didnt, he proceeded to basically ally with his factions worst enemy and let them do the things he told me I couldnt do, doing pretty much 100% the opposite of what lore is.
The moral of both stories is that players will declare players they don't like KoS and their friends the grand-masters of RP, no matter how good their "enemy"'s RP is and how crappy their own and their friends RP is.
How can you be so sure that those players were out to get you? You base your interaction on a conspiracy theory, not that those players may simply want to pirate you. If I get shot up by an Order pilot, I don't assume it's because they hate me and do it as part of an ooRP grudge; it's just normal PvP.
Your second example is a bit hard to understand and unless you can actually link it or provide further context I can't really make sense of it. Still, other factions can't really impose anything on indies that aren't a part of their NPC faction.
You take two, personal, encounters and treat that as the norm. Madness. It's like saying all Muslims are terrorists.
Yes. I can't be sure. And neither can you or the admins.
And even when mistaken, people are going to take it very personal when their ship gets deleted and another players who did the same thing doesnt.
That's exactly the reason why it's bound to keep happening, without being distinguishable from a real "conspiracy". And why its going to cause a lot of drama because players will tend to take their ships getting deleted very personal.
That's exactly the reason why giving players the chance to have someone's ship deleted in such a way is a really, really bad idea.
What you're saying is like saying its a good idea to legalize killing people with bombs because not everyone is a terrorist.
(02-26-2018, 06:05 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: [ -> ] (02-26-2018, 05:22 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly.
"when it's not supposed to"
Because you're the one who decides who is "supposed to" do what.
The Core official ID, not us on a whim, permits us to take Capitals outside of our ZoI, unlike the indie ID which cannot.
No matter how you try to wrap this up and twist it, it still lets YOU decide what is good and what is bad RP for taking your caps outside your ZOI. Something that you want to take away for non officials while keeping it for yourself.
this lengthy blah blah is not fixing anything. for one I have taken my neph to space, that at the time, I had no idea I was not allowed in it. I was stoped and surrounded and was told I was not allowed in that space with out permission, which at that time they where helpful in telling where in the forum to look so I would know how to do it right, and they escorted me out and that was that. THE BIGGEST problem is hot heads, which this thread is pointing out a good amount of them, just want to shoot people as a way of dealing with it.
But as stated before the people I have encountered handled it I would say professionally. there only one individual that I can recall that was less then that and they shall not be named here. Kind of odd I can recall every time I was somewhere I was not suppose to be to a total of 4 times.
maybe what the game actually needs is a lot of the "oh I am going to shoot you because you are on my lawn" redneck attitude types , cut down on the caffeine, and stop with the pucker factor of 9000. you all know, or at least most of you should, that it is human nature to be where the people are. Putting RP a side. just because your faction has to play as flaming D# would it not bring more people to your faction if you where not chasing off everyone. people like to be treaded some sort of respect.
you shot one then they come back with two. then you have to bring three then you have the mess you have now all over the game.
Educate people. if you don't have the time or don't think you need to do so then you have no one to blame but your selfs . once you suck all the fun out of the game you will have all the space you want and no one to bother you.
(02-26-2018, 06:33 PM)Karlotta Wrote: [ -> ]Even though I never really said or implied "who are admins to tell me what to do", I should probably point out to you that in fact, it's not the admins job to tell me what to do. Their job is to write rules and make sure everyone follows them, and to stick to that instead of telling people what to do individually. Not sure why you keep mentioning devs, because neither is it their job to tell me what to do, nor can I remember a dev telling me or anyone else what to do.
So what's the difference between admins defining the boundaries of what you can or cannot do through writing and enforcing rules instead of talking directly to you? What's the difference between devs defining the boundaries of what you can or cannot do through defining factions and developing the story instead of talking directly to you? The former alternative of both questions are their tasks (not really jobs, since they aren't paid for it), whether you agree with that or not.
This proposal isn't against any admin or dev action or decision, it is meant to amend a lack of ruling in order to give meaning to how devs defined factions, Lyth's version through prohibition, mine through consequence enforcement through monetary loss.