Discovery Gaming Community

polls work right

i'm sure they do

administration will definitely pay attention to this poll because it is an EFFECTIVE DECLARATION OF PUBLIC SENTIMENT

tl;dr make the enforcement as simple as it appears on IDs, which is "can enforce laws" within ZOI, no restrictions (ex. Can enforce laws within Liberty and systems bordering Liberty, and NOWHERE ELSE), i unzip my lizard do you wish to continue, yes or no, big brain binary decision instead of a gradient of "you can do it BUT"

EDIT:

To clarify, what I mean is this:

To be changed, or outright removed in order to be consistent with ID lines, so there's no debate on what is and is not enforceable.

I'm not a fan of mixing RP and Server rules (id restriction/sanctions).

I'd like to keep it as it is. In case of doubt, the id overrides the rules.
If someone enforces the RP-laws and the RP-law itself say that's legit to be enforced in that system thats enough IMHO.

[Edit]
You should keep in mind that changes of the "Sovereign, Controlled, Outer"-Declations affects also the docking rules and the quasi-lawful pirating rules.

(08-04-2020, 12:29 PM)rwx Wrote: [ -> ][Edit]
You should keep in mind that changes of the "Sovereign, Controlled, Outer"-Declations affect also the docking rules and the quasi-lawful pirating rules.

For quasi-lawful piracy and Zoner docking rules, generally it can be shortened to "house space." Ultimately, define house space as things like Honshu, Shikoku, New Tokyo, Kyushu, Hokkaido, or Stuttgart, New Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Dresden, etc. The point isn't necessarily to affect those rules, because the problem does not ultimately lie with those lines.

(08-04-2020, 12:29 PM)rwx Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not a fan of mixing RP and Server rules (id restriction/sanctions).

I'd like to keep it as it is. In case of doubt, the id overrides the rules.
If someone enforces the RP-laws and the RP-law itself say that's legit to be enforced in that system thats enough IMHO.

The problem I posted this to address ironically enough, concerned how house inrp law enforcement works, when not looked at in a vacuum. Pay attention to the yellow and red sections, which says that they cannot enforce roleplay consequences without personally being present. This means that in a system like, say, Magellan, or Bering, if someone comms Libgov, Bretgov, or Rheingov about it, they are not supposed, or allowed, to do anything in response to it, because they were not physically present. This would be understandable if it was further outside, in a system like say, Vespucci in the case of Liberty, because that would require an overextension of house assets in order to achieve. However, it is not.

Being unable to enforce house law based on recordings of criminal actions in a system like Cortez is confusing, given its status as not only a major hub for Orbital Spa & Cruise, but also a fast route for lawful traders and general civilian traffic to cross house borders, given the fact that it is a system that directly borders two separate houses.

a posibility for lawfuls to have equal rights to unlawfuls in terms of ZoI? yay.

This system was created as a compromise to promote more roleplay and edgy encounters in systems on the edge of houses (which are supposed to be not fully controlled by house law enforcement outside of trade lanes and their vicinity), mainly to allow corporate and quasi-lawful shady actions. Like attacking corporate rivals (using the ID permissions) and such, but also smuggling for example. Removing this system will not bring anything to the game, exactly opposite, it will remove the possibility to play dirty on the outskirts of houses. No one will risk it knowing that all it takes are few screenshots send to authorities to make you, or even your faction as a whole pay hard for actions which ooRPly brings activity and interesting roleplay opportunities. Sure, it does not happen much, but it is still there. And at the same time, it provides lawfuls opportunity to act if they witness something directly ingame.

I don´t see any benefits to the mod in removing the possibility to play at least little dirty in shady corners of house space.

These rules exist to protect Quasi-Lawful/Legal gameplay from House Govs who time and time again in the past acted in a way that became detrimental towards the gameplay of the aforementioned IDs. I suppose I can see the weirdness in situations like House lafwuls being unable to deal with unlawful POBs in the Border Worlds, but Junkers and Corps being able to pirate in the Border Worlds without being immediately ratted out by whiney traders was a great change.

(08-04-2020, 01:31 PM)Lumik8 Wrote: [ -> ]This system was created as a compromise to promote more roleplay and edgy encounters in systems on the edge of houses (which are supposed to be not fully controlled by house law enforcement outside of trade lanes and their vicinity), mainly to allow corporate and quasi-lawful shady actions. Like attacking corporate rivals (using the ID permissions) and such, but also smuggling for example. Removing this system will not bring anything to the game, exactly opposite, it will remove the possibility to play dirty on the outskirts of houses. No one will risk it knowing that all it takes are few screenshots send to authorities to make you, or even your faction as a whole pay hard for actions which ooRPly brings activity and interesting roleplay opportunities. Sure, it does not happen much, but it is still there. And at the same time, it provides lawfuls opportunity to act if they witness something directly ingame.

I don´t see any benefits to the mod in removing the possibility to play at least little dirty in shady corners of house space.

This says it perfectly tbh.

(08-04-2020, 01:31 PM)Lumik8 Wrote: [ -> ]This system was created as a compromise to promote more roleplay and edgy encounters in systems on the edge of houses (which are supposed to be not fully controlled by house law enforcement outside of trade lanes and their vicinity), mainly to allow corporate and quasi-lawful shady actions. Like attacking corporate rivals (using the ID permissions) and such, but also smuggling for example. Removing this system will not bring anything to the game, exactly opposite, it will remove the possibility to play dirty on the outskirts of houses. No one will risk it knowing that all it takes are few screenshots send to authorities to make you, or even your faction as a whole pay hard for actions which ooRPly brings activity and interesting roleplay opportunities. Sure, it does not happen much, but it is still there. And at the same time, it provides lawfuls opportunity to act if they witness something directly ingame.

I don´t see any benefits to the mod in removing the possibility to play at least little dirty in shady corners of house space.

In an ideal circumstance there would be side deals and tactfully ignoring certain lawbreaking activities as a result of roleplay.

Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal circumstance, and you get absurdity like FR5ing a faction from Liberty for getting pirated in the Omegas, when the laws should only be enforced when the infraction actually takes place in their ID ZOI.

I can see the point you're making, though I feel that's more a "this community is apparently bad enough we need to cast on OORP reins in order to prevent people from being asshats to eachother in-game" than the aforementioned double standards that would be present in-roleplay to display house corruption, or apathy.

Also, I've dealt with the same thing from Tau-37 as a Junker. Yes, it was stupid, and ultimately turned me off piracy for a while. I just hate seeing the debates about this go on because it's more or less riddled with people who feel the need to take advantage of anything they can because "screw the other guy."

Part of this was born of frustration of seeing debate over something that I feel should be clear-cut, objective and set in stone.

(08-04-2020, 01:44 PM)Typrop Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately, this isn't an ideal circumstance, and you get absurdity like FR5ing a faction from Liberty for getting pirated in the Omegas, when the laws should only be enforced when the infraction actually takes place in their ID ZOI.

Can you elaborate what is this about? Because this sounds like something that is against the rules.

Generally: The system is compromise thus not perfect and bordering situations happen. On the other hand, if you try to remove it, you would have to determine hard which systems are controlled by lawfuls and which are not, what won´t be easy for many systems. It will end in a situation when either lawfuls will control like two-thirds of the star map (and like described above, it will kill quasi-lawful activities there), or that lawfuls will not be able to act even ingame in some systems despite they are next to house core systems. In both cases, ingame activity is killed, not created.

Intelligence enforcing laws? Seems like confusion of intelligence job with police. IMHO, inRP intelligence should lay low most of the time. Even if intelligence investigates someone doing malicious stuff against their House, usually it should be much more grievous than simple law violation. Also, this would invalidate no-man's land. I am against.

(08-04-2020, 01:58 PM)Lumik8 Wrote: [ -> ]Can you elaborate what is this about? Because this sounds like something that is against the rules.

It's the reason the entire rule setup was made, more or less. At least, that's what hearsay says. Libcorps got pirated in the Omegas, Liberty FR5'd in response.

(08-04-2020, 01:58 PM)Lumik8 Wrote: [ -> ]Generally: The system is compromise thus not perfect and bordering situations happen. On the other hand, if you try to remove it, you would have to determine hard which systems are controlled by lawfuls and which are not, what won´t be easy for many systems. It will end in a situation when either lawfuls will control like two-thirds of the star map (and like described above, it will kill quasi-lawful activities there), or that lawfuls will not be able to act even ingame in some systems despite they are next to house core systems. In both cases, ingame activity is killed, not created.

Yeah, and this is causing a bunch of questions for me in general, because there's sort of this realization where it's like, yes, both sides of the debate are technically right in every respect.

Including how bad the other side is.