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(11-08-2012, 12:14 PM)Prysin Wrote: [ -> ]"forståsegpåer'e"
Hey I understood that ("kloge-Åge" here)! You forget the addendum to your argument though: To get the full view of something, you are best served with the view from
both the inside and the outside.
Rather than making this a trench-thing, it would be good to take each other's views into account, rather than blatantly dismiss them.
(11-07-2012, 01:01 PM)Blodo Wrote: [ -> ]Or... maybe we should just repeal the official faction system altogether and get back to the way it was in 4.82? I dunno, but I am just throwing that out there.
Yes, please. There's just absolutely no point to official factions anymore... if there ever was. Probably not. Just abolish the damn system altogether.
As a bit of a warning, a lot of this post will be redundant, and I didn't read the whole conversation. I can't begin to propose anything that may edify the situation at hand, but I suppose I'm just dropping in to say that I support keeping Official Factions around. From the gist of what little I've read, it seems that the official factions are having issues with memberships, participation and a lack of good roleplaying in general. I like the whole system, and I enjoy the lore that's been created, paving the way for certain events in the whole overview of Disco. It's sort of like how events in EVE Online are sometimes wholly dictated by what players have done, rather than what the devs just tell the players "happened".
I'm new to this community, and to the Disco mod, but I really enjoy all of this storyline stuff and would be quite sad if it was just retconned from existence. If the problem behind the lack of membership lay within people just powergaming and completely forgoing official factions in favor of gaining a better statistical advantage, that's a bit of a problem that I wouldn't know any solutions of. Personally, I was really looking into making a Golden Chrysanthemum character, or maybe just a Kusari or Rheinland police officer (not navy) sometime, so hearing that GC doesn't properly exist as an organized entity anymore, and that no one else really wants to be in the police anymore is quite saddening. I can understand that the desire is to have cap ships and generally feel powerful, and that pirates run around in cap ships as well, but in the 60 or so hours I've played, the majority of pirates I've seen so far that were in the middle of pirating were actually in bombers—completely wonderful since I pilot an Osprey or a Conference Gunship—rather than a Legate or Praetorian as some people would imply is happening.
Anyway, perhaps lowering the upkeep requirements of the official factions would be a good place to start, especially during this time of year when people are either shuffling about in preparation for the holidays, or busying themselves with some sort of school work. Maybe even an official salary script (like automatic transactions for fulfilling certain missions that are either generated or created by the owners of the faction) for the lawfuls and a bonus system (small multipliers for smuggling items when you have a specific ID, or an applied multiplier for getting /sendcash'd by certain ID'd characters) for the unlawful factions would be good—though I have no clue if that's even possible or if it would be easy to implement, and I can see a few ways a system like that could be abused.
Also, it's not like I want indie factions to be nerfed, since my Zoner pretty much depends on being indie as OSI isn't a very good fit for her ideals, and TAZ just looks like some kind of odd cult that she may or may not occasionally supply /anyway/. Just that NPC/Official factions are really cool, and need some sort of new way to keep them fresh. I think they're really quite conducive to a good roleplaying experience, and that RP experience is half the reason I'm here, and not in some other Disco server.
I think one of the big issues is that people are just plain lazy. In times where you get the feeling that more and more folks use disco as an egoshooter in funny spaceboats it would be a good move search for ways of promoting rp and good behaviour- and as sad as it is, ways to get rid of folks who are not even marginally interested in learning or at least trying it.
Similar to that- if a person is not that much into the concept of role playing and just looks for a easy /l1 /l2 way to play his egoshooter or is at the beginning of his roleplaying career(maybe getting fixed by starwars or something alike) you will have a hard time why itis cooler to play agalactic wastemover instead of a badass merc/soldier or something. Same for police- the lawman isn't cool with the cool kids i guess- so playing a lawbreaker/warhero or generic sociopath is much hipper than that...
Also, how to get a not so rp-interested player into playing one of the niche-hauling factions? If you are not interested in developing "your" char, why should you trade in passengers or paste - if you can just pick the one general hauler(or kusarian-haul-everywheres) annd be done with it?
What i think is needed is an overhaul on who is allowed to do what, ship what where(and get properly paid for doing so!) and,very important: who is allowed to ally up with whom(which leads to a whole other discussion). For me, it would be a good thing to really discuss how things should work from scratch- without fear of hefty changes...though you need open minded and interested people for that, which leads back to the beginning....
(11-07-2012, 01:01 PM)Blodo Wrote: [ -> ]I hope you guys see where the issue lies.
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...t=flagship
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...=flagships
Ahm. It is not like we are debating about something new.
From nowadays PoV it is better to be indie, in this old topic I described what could be done to change the situation. It is logical that official factions should have some advantages not only responsibilities.
Running all official factions on Guard IFFs with double IDs(Better ZoI/Caps,5k transps like SCRA ID) and passworded guard "shop" for caps could fix it, or giving them any real in-game benefit.
If you go outside of the common disco understandings and go in the normal world corporations you would find out the external workers working together with the normal corporation employees, the said externals are working for the corporation but they are not part of it- so in general they receive less money for the same task at the same position compared with normal employee. I see the indies as externals- putting no effort into faction development or RP story/modelling ships/lore etc of the faction stuff but getting the same in-game toys? It is wrong,very wrong.
We could continue with the debate for one more year till the official factions are around 20 or till the average numbers of players become less then 50, it is 77 now and it was 150.
http://flserver.de/topservers.php?timeframe=year we are at 77 people average, it was more then 100 last time when I checked.
If you notice the older topic I was speaking about 60-70 official factions-how much left? Devs should do something and they should be supported by the community.
Sad but very true. Though I think such rigid rules on how the game works might make things hard for the indie players. More incentive to roleplay through the use of bonuses is good, but punishments for not being in an official faction and doing things their way is bad.
Pretty much everything in there is something I'd agree with. More incentives and buffs to the officials, no need for any nerfs for indies.
----
More redundancy ahead
My Zoner character, and the character of my friend (also a Zoner) are pretty much always going to stick to the indie path, as I previously stated. But we went into Disco Freelancer with the specific intent to roleplay. It sometimes seems like we're powertrading, but there's a backstory reason behind why Yuuko is always after as big a profit as she can find. It might seem like I'm powergaming when I want a Fearless class Zoner Cruiser, but there's a reason why Kyouko would even consider wanting one, even if she prefers fighters. There's a certain mindset that isn't surfacing with players, is one way I can think of saying it. People aren't playing any roles, they just want to pew like the whole server is Connecticut, and it's a little sad.
tl;dr: RP plox. You're making me cry when you don't.
I actually don't want to really infringe on indies rights or anything with my proposal, to my experiance there are more then enough idiots in factions aswell as superb indie players and vice versa. A tag doesn't make anybody a better player- it simply adds other elements to the game, as well as organization and recognition.
What i ment is restricting and steamlining factions globally- which will cause cries from the always yesterdayers(like always) but might give "undesirable" factions a better field of activity by simply taking it from factions that are "do-it-alls" right now. Of course genericIDs wouldbe hit hardest simply they are the easiest to misuse.
On how to get pvp-/l1/l2 players out of the closet...i have no good idea. Rules might be an options but would cause more buerocracy...sad thing is- relying ont he goodwill of players seems to not work out.
Besides what already was told, I think we all can agree faction to be active needs active leader. We need to count in our considerations some of now inactive factions have leaders busy with exams/work/other RL issues.
Except that, not everybody can be leader, and when such person leads faction, faction suffers, members suffer, factions and players interacting with that faction suffer. I think it will be nothing new when I say some of current faction leaders shouldn't be them. Please don't mention these leaders here though; for one it'll be leader of faction X, when for other leader of faction Y. I'll only say sometimes there's no difference between official leaders skype chat, and AGS chat. Those who are in AGS one will know about what I speak.
The other thing is this server deviated from RP oriented towards poorly concealed promotion of PvP. Even more capitals, right to pirate in capitals (in a situation when scout can miss cloaked cruiser, which can literally rape entire well organised convoy, introduction of jump drives kills trading), even more "may treat as combat target" lines in many IDs (cruiser approaches transport/miner, says "die member of XYZ!" and opens fire). I just wonder who from admin/devteam had sick idea "may treat as combat target" will encourage RP. We need to remove that clause.
(11-08-2012, 01:58 PM)Govedo13 Wrote: [ -> ] (11-07-2012, 01:01 PM)Blodo Wrote: [ -> ]I hope you guys see where the issue lies.
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...t=flagship
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread...=flagships
Ahm. It is not like we are debating about something new.
From nowadays PoV it is better to be indie, in this old topic I described what could be done to change the situation. It is logical that official factions should have some advantages not only responsibilities.
Running all official factions on Guard IFFs with double IDs(Better ZoI/Caps,5k transps like SCRA ID) and passworded guard "shop" for caps could fix it, or giving them any real in-game benefit.
If you go outside of the common disco understandings and go in the normal world corporations you would find out the external workers working together with the normal corporation employees, the said externals are working for the corporation but they are not part of it- so in general they receive less money for the same task at the same position compared with normal employee. I see the indies as externals- putting no effort into faction development or RP story/modelling ships/lore etc of the faction stuff but getting the same in-game toys? It is wrong,very wrong.
We could continue with the debate for one more year till the official factions are around 20 or till the average numbers of players become less then 50, it is 77 now and it was 150. http://flserver.de/topservers.php?timeframe=year we are at 77 people average, it was more then 100 last time when I checked.
If you notice the older topic I was speaking about 60-70 official factions-how much left? Devs should do something and they should be supported by the community.
well what are you recommanding is making even harder for new players and that will loose even more players
while having more benefits for official faction then the "indies" that's not what will increase number of those who will join them,but by having less requirements to join[like loosing the biography becase new players wont write 1 page of story,etc],you should be able to learn to roleplay after you join a faction not before and that's why the number of sillent attacks happens ingame[yes i do think "Fire at will" silent] and some just stop playing..
another issue about official factions is that although they have a faction RIGHT that says they are to assist in the development and secure the continuation of their NPC factions RP, the devs themselves mostly overrule this. It is by default an unwritten rule that "official factions DOES NOT EXIST in lore".... This is why alot of good RP is being wasted, and why alot of factions just give up.
The leaders, members and indies all together may work their arses off, but in the end, it doesnt matter that much. Because it wont be considered to be part of the official game RP. This is also very confusing for indies. Because you have to adjust yourself after two separate sets of guidelines, in addition to the "rules" that comes with the territory you operate in.
Let me take a VERY good example, ill be using my own faction as an example; 101st DID make a NAP with BAF back in 2008 or perhaps earlier, i dunno, i dun care... its been around for FIVE YEARS. And aside from the OC and Bret ID saying they can cooperate, there is no ingame story, rumor or RP that suggest that there actually IS a NAP. But still the official factions would slap their respective indies for causing trouble with the other side. Now, how do you expect indies to EVER grasp the idea of what roleplay is, when there is nothing ingame that supports it, except from some posts made by a faction leader who long since left disco.
In other words, we cant expect indies to partake or even to follow official RP, because the official RP aint official at all. It has no weight behind it. The whole "Laws of Sirius" is about the only "official" set of RP rules any faction can impose on offenders.
Another problem is that official factions are not allowed to use any form of faction power towards their indies. So, if a lol-dread goes to liberty, i cant tell my men to log 5 falcatas and blast it to bits. No, instead i have to call in a third party to deal with MY problem, because admins doesnt allow ME to clean up my own damn mess.
This problem is a result of the hopeless situation that admins have placed the official factions in. Yes there has been abuse and subjugation of indies in the past. However, admins does NOT believe in the concept of "common sense". This is why official factions are merely a title.
When your faction becomes official you have the right to add gold plating to your name and logo, then you can go weep in a corner as the shackles are being put on. Blodo is right, an independent faction basically pays 500m to loose their "power". The only difference is that you have the right to block others from using your own stations (a 6.10 is just as effective IMO), the right to get your own ID (at the expense of that tiny control over the NPC faction, thus potentially screwing yourself over), You also has the right to get a "free" CAU 8 (it will cost you 3 months+ to get it....) AND let us not forget, a faction subforum you yourself cant moderate....
There IS no real bonus worthwhile from being official. The amount of "power" you have is exponential to the amount of people you can befriend and or manipulate over skype. However the only real bonus that IS worth it, is that you automatically gain respect. Because people realize that IF they screw with you, you can screw them over. And that tiny bit of respect and notoriety is what makes it all worth it. If you are willing to spend 2-10 hours a day managing your pixels.
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