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+---- Thread: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning (/showthread.php?tid=105130)
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Highland Laddie - 11-21-2013
Here's the thing...you can't only determine what a missle/ship loadout should look like based on what the most skilled pilots are flying. because there's already a steep learning curve to combat. Sure, Haste may be able to kill a ship with 2 Sidewinders in a 1v1 fight, but as Jack already pointed out, that doesn't translate the same in a big brawl. There's lag, multiple CDs getting shot, and multiple CMs getting dropped that also factors into the equation.
I don't really see how the missles have thrown skill to the wind in PvP, either. Have you guys all experienced this first-hand, or are we talking hypotheticals? Is it their new ability to track that is the problem? Is it their damage/shot, or is it just the ammo count, or is it the ineffectiveness of CMs to counter them? All of the above? Some? None?
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Hidamari - 11-22-2013
let me tell you, there is not a steep learning curve to combat in this game at all.
Its exactly that mindset which pretty much guaruntees that you will never be any good at pvp.
stop telling yourself its hard and just start doing more to guaruntee your success.
YES you will be blown up a million billion times, each time you learn something else, that doesnt make it difficult it makes it long winded. which is how any person performing any task becomes proficient at it, by repetition .
In combat there are two things you need to be good at to survive (before cool missiles were invented)
Movement, and Aiming
I never practiced my movement skills, so they arent nearly as sharp as my aiming skills. know how I got to be good at aiming? by guard repping.
shooting countless npcs, for HOURS and HOURS, days and days spent guard repping not only for me but for other people who couldnt be bothered to do it themselves.shooting down thousands and thousands of twisting winding and lagging NPCS, LN guard, BAF guard, BPA guard, RM Guard.
using 2.00, 5.88, 8.33 fire guns constantly for literally days, do that and unless you dont have the capacity to learn you will simply find your aim increases exponentially, especially if you time yourself like i did, trying to do it faster and faster meaning you need to be more accurate, but because npcs cant damage you in most circumstance your movement doesnt need to be very good.
this is also why im better in a chase fight but not so much at the duel aspects. 8|
in conclusion, its not hard, so dont ever say it again pls.
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Highland Laddie - 11-22-2013
Your assumption is that I haven't spent much time PvPing or training at all, but I'm after the easy blue-message. I've been playing this game for over 2 years now, also spending a lot of hours grinding missions, fights in Conn, etc.
And I still think there is a curve involved between being a semi-decent PvPer (where I'd put myself) and a good one. And sure, learning and skill come through repetition, but...not everyone wants it to take that much time/energy/patience/devotion simply to earn a blue message and enjoy that aspect of the game.
Even in real warfare, flying aces are never guaranteed victory (Red Baron was shot down by a MG crew on the ground) A lot of warfare boils to a combination of skill and chance. I think missles help prevent PvP aces.from easily.dominating the skies by giving even a noob a chance at, if not victory, maybe survival. That's certainly a lot more "fun."
And, as someone else mentioned, I also believe that real PvP aces will have no trouble adapting to the more efficient missles...or even use them themselves to great effect. The only hard part for them will be coming to grips with the idea that they're not invincible anymore.
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Haste - 11-22-2013
The problem with missiles right now is that they're supposed to be balanced for a gun slot. As in, they're not even remotely balanced for one.
In order to make it worthwhile to use full-gun setups (leaving that as a competitive option was, I assume, the reason the missile slot is shared with a gun slot), missiles have to be toned down significantly.
Firestalkers are just plain broken. Countermeasures don't work against them. CDs don't work against them. All three (Cannonballs, Sidewinders and Firestalkers) have far too much ammo. In order for them to be balanced for a gun slot and still worth using, they have to pack a punch but run out quickly. They are not a "standard weapon" that you should have throughout the entire fight, unless you use them very sparingly.
Right now, they just plain don't run out. Of course, if you're mindlessly spamming them from random ranges and angles, using them on shields and whatnot, you're going to run out with the current ammo limits. But guess what, in order to make them actually require a marginal amount of skill, they'll need to be a lot more limited in what they can do.
I do think Blodo is hesitant to balance with ammo quantities rather than missile stats because people can so easily circumvent those restrictions, however. Until that's fixed, they're going to either remain as brutally overpowered as they are now (as in, I feel bad for whoever I use them on, and thus prefer not to), or they're going to have to be nerfed into uselessness.
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Highland Laddie - 11-22-2013
Well, folks could always.circumvent ammo the way they circumvent.bots/bats.
So, adjusting stats would probably be the best option.
There's got to be a solution that lies in the middle of missles.being OP and nerfed to uselessness. That's what we should aim for here.
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Pancakes - 11-23-2013
(11-22-2013, 03:33 AM)Highland Laddie Wrote: Your assumption is that I haven't spent much time PvPing or training at all, but I'm after the easy blue-message. I've been playing this game for over 2 years now, also spending a lot of hours grinding missions, fights in Conn, etc.
And I still think there is a curve involved between being a semi-decent PvPer (where I'd put myself) and a good one. And sure, learning and skill come through repetition, but...not everyone wants it to take that much time/energy/patience/devotion simply to earn a blue message and enjoy that aspect of the game.
Even in real warfare, flying aces are never guaranteed victory (Red Baron was shot down by a MG crew on the ground) A lot of warfare boils to a combination of skill and chance. I think missles help prevent PvP aces.from easily.dominating the skies by giving even a noob a chance at, if not victory, maybe survival. That's certainly a lot more "fun."
And, as someone else mentioned, I also believe that real PvP aces will have no trouble adapting to the more efficient missles...or even use them themselves to great effect. The only hard part for them will be coming to grips with the idea that they're not invincible anymore.
It's not that the problem. It's the fact that currently a gank squad of missile fighters > all.
Spending time to improve your skill doesn't matter anymore as long as you have the larger number and you can just spam missiles right away.
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Haste - 11-23-2013
(11-22-2013, 03:22 PM)Highland Laddie Wrote: Well, folks could always.circumvent ammo the way they circumvent.bots/bats.
So, adjusting stats would probably be the best option.
There's got to be a solution that lies in the middle of missles.being OP and nerfed to uselessness. That's what we should aim for here.
If we assume people have infinite ammo, missiles have to be nerfed to gun level minus a bit (guns aren't guided after all).
Which would make them useless for anyone who doesn't circumvent ammo limits.
Simple.
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Yber - 12-02-2013
People still give the same arguments to defend their crap attitude towards pvp. If you want to win without any sort of effort, get lost, go play some gameforge stuff.
If I have trained fives times harder I should be five times better, which doesn't include crap training as most of people do. Training= fight against someone either better or as good as you knowledge wise, once you are aware of every basic movement that there is in FL.
Hidamari is right about the effort part.
There's a point from which one person simply can't deal with more people. That's fine. (15 from my experience considering they've the minimal attitude level).
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Govedo13 - 12-03-2013
ye ye:
http://youtu.be/F7AxfS3FHTQ?t=4m48s
and yes I do use full guns loadout on all of my vhfs. In my PoV skill should not count more then 2 other people. It means that 1 skilled player should be able to win vs 2 unskilled but should fail at 100% vs 3 unskilled. The missiles are quite right step in this direction.
RE: 4.87 fighter missiles finetuning - Haste - 12-03-2013
Yes. The guy in that video is obviously not talking about the fact that using skill-less weapons to create a 'balance' between good players and bad players is a horrible idea, and he's not naming examples of games that did it better without this kind of easy fix.
Anyways, at high population missiles aren't as ridiculous as they seemed to be initially. Firestalkers are still uncounterable weapons of mass destruction, however.
Make catapults worthwhile, please. Those are actually missiles I'd consider using.