Abstract
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Fighter missiles in 4.87 have been redesigned from the ground up in accordance with the concept of a damage/risk vs ammo count ratio (e.g.: high damage equals high risk and low ammo). Tracking for missiles has been greatly improved in general, however lower damage missiles will still have slightly better tracking than higher damage missiles. All fighters can now mount only one missile launcher, so they have to pick their loadout in accordance to their tactics.
This said, at this stage missiles are not yet fully balanced. Right now we're at the proof of concept stage, so feedback will be necessary to finetune them so that each launcher is useful for different tactics.
At this point 4 launchers have been changed: Cannonball (high damage/risk, low ammo count), Firestalker (low damage/risk, high ammo count), Sidewinder (middle of the line choice), Paralyser (pulse missile).
Discussion
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Here are things I specifically want to discuss (but before you reply, review list of planned/carried out changes at the end of this post):
Synergy of loadouts - current balance changes are designed to let fighters deliver a lot more damage than they could in 4.86, so that we can make fights shorter. Most possible shotgun loadouts have been considered and ok'ed for now, that said if a particular loadout is too OP (in that it outclasses everything else), it should get looked at.
Defence strats - dodging works against guns, not that much against missiles. I want well placed CMs to be the defence against missile users just as good dodging defends against guns. Take note that CM should not be a foolproof defence either, it should be fired at a specific time to allow a skill curve to form. Reports on CM effectiveness and ideas on how to improve them without making them a foolproof defence will be considered.
Missile damage against components - specifically how many missiles does it take for an opponent to start losing guns in a typical fight, how many should it take. Now that missiles actually do damage, I guess this will start happening again so the discussion on whether this is desired or not (and if it is then to what extent) is open.
And really anything else that is related here, that hasn't been put into the list below already.
Here is list of things that wont be considered because of various issues (I'll add to it as we go along with reasons why not, do not use this thread to discuss them, feel free to open another if you really want to):
One launcher per ship limit - this is done because due to the simplistic way freelancer handles missiles I am fairly convinced that it is impossible to balance missiles in such a way that they are useful, but also are not better/worse than guns. An additional (if small) problem is that of ammo limits, and that they are shared between launchers, and there is nothing we can do about this at this time. But a bigger problem is the fact that if you were able to mount 2 CBs at the moment rather than 1, you'd be able to instakill people so they'd have to be reduced in damage... at which point it would be useless to mount less than 2 and so on until we reach the point where they are just stupid. So they will remain as a support weapon of choice, and guns will always be the main battle weapon, sorry for ruining your dreams of missile boats.
Returning them back to 4.86 balance - kind of obvious why not, but in case it isn't let me just say that having missiles that nobody uses (other than 3 noobs on the server who didn't yet realise that they were useless in 4.86, and will likely try to convince me otherwise anyway) is not a nice thing.
Changes in Update 1
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Refire delay increase for all launchers to reduce spamminess.
Countermeasures redesigned for tactical use (infocards may still be out of date).
Ammo counts reduced slightly.
Changes in Update 3
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Muzzle velocity for all missiles removed (note: they will still retain the current ship speed upon launch), small motor delay introduced (may be buggy, needs testing on server), missile motor acceleration increased in varying amounts to preserve missile top speed. Note that this is an important change, as it changes drastically the way missiles perform upon launch (slow to start instead of starting at mid speed, etc.).
Countermeasures effectiveness slightly reduced to account for the increased response time.
Cannonballs now have a larger explosion radius as well as a slight impulse effect for anti slide tactics.
Catapult missile introduced (non seeking, decent ammo capacity, middle of the line damage)
Planned changes for next update
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Missile tracking cones and max angular velocity slightly decreased.
Countermeasures ammo limit largely increased.
Fortress CM range and refire rate slight increase.
Foreword: Tnx for making missiles work! The last version really was a disappointment when missiles would sometimes track, and mostly not. Having tracking missiles that hit and do damage and add to pvp is a real technical breakthrough.
Now to balancing:
Blodo has mentioned most necessary points already. So I only add some ideas of mine that I gathered from brutally spammy LF vs. LF fighting
Passive counterstrategy imo could be: "shields do well against missiles".
I was fighting with Firestalkers and Sidewinders and they both were so damn lethal because they were so effective against shields and hull.
If missiles (except the anti shield missiles) did good hull damage, but were not very useful against shield, you'd get the Hellfire tradeoff: "you need guns/mines to down shields => then you can missile the hull".
This would also reintroduce strategy and skill into the game and would give guns a reason to be used (kind of hard atm because the missing shieldbubble makes gunning so much harder).
Active Counter: CMs do work already if you drop them manually. It's however very difficult because of the missile spamminess (especially the insane refire of Firestalkers!). If missiles refire more slowly, CMing them with skill and evasive turns would already work. But CMing 5 incoming missiles via well-timed CMs and maneuvers at the same time ofc cannot work.
Generally, I think missiles should find their role in pvp; EMP to down shields, MR+Codes for shotgunning, missiles for hull damage on deshielded snubs, e.g. in chase fighting (when target is on full-dodge and nearly unhittable with anything else). They should however not be the solution to everything.
How fast should missiles be fired?
Max speed: 1 missile / 1 second.
Likely better: 1 missile / 2 seconds
A typical joust-turning pvp match should not allow any side to fire more than 2-3 missiles per approach (perhaps excluding low damage almost-Hellfire-type) missiles.
Hope that helps.
I'll take the other named categories into account when I go and test again.
I want to throw the idea out that missiles should certainly keep their high damage and ability to hit, but I would advise lowering their refire rate (as you have mentioned) and reducing their ammo counts significantly.
If a cannonball launcher only held , say 12 shots (maybe tracking missiles hold 20-24.... paralyzer about the same), you can use those very sparingly to finish off fighters and you would not be able to spam them. Rule and mechanic wise, people can leave combat to restock their launchers, and it provides another exchange... high burst damage, very low stamina. You let a guy get away in combat, he comes back fully repaired, but now their is another risk of him suddenly being able to throw more burst damage around.... if he can't escape, he is down one gun in short order if he is bad with his missile usage.
Any chance of fighter torpedoes becoming, well, useful?
Yes. Later down the line. Feel free to open another thread for them if you have ideas before we start coming up with them.
(09-19-2013, 12:34 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: If missiles (except the anti shield missiles) did good hull damage, but were not very useful against shield, you'd get the Hellfire tradeoff: "you need guns/mines to down shields => then you can missile the hull".
This is sadly impossible at this stage because there's only two modes of damage that missiles/guns can be set to: either shield damage being half hull damage (normal) or no hull damage/full shield damage (pulse). It's an engine limitation. More on how to bypass this below:
(09-19-2013, 12:34 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: Active Counter: CMs do work already if you drop them manually. It's however very difficult because of the missile spamminess (especially the insane refire of Firestalkers!). If missiles refire more slowly, CMing them with skill and evasive turns would already work. But CMing 5 incoming missiles via well-timed CMs and maneuvers at the same time ofc cannot work.
As mentioned in the first post the refire rate will be adjusted for next update. CMs will also be adjusted to provide various options for evading incoming missiles. It is possible with one well placed CM to sway a couple of missiles at a time, however what people need to remember about CMs is that the missile must already be in the CMs range when the CM is dropped, it will NOT home in on the CM if it is dropped before the missile reaches its range. The new missile mechanics will force people to learn this fun fact, and I'll use it extensively in the CM update.
(09-19-2013, 12:40 PM)kikatsu Wrote: I want to throw the idea out that missiles should certainly keep their high damage and ability to hit, but I would advise lowering their refire rate (as you have mentioned) and reducing their ammo counts significantly.
If a cannonball launcher only held , say 12 shots (maybe tracking missiles hold 20-24.... paralyzer about the same), you can use those very sparingly to finish off fighters and you would not be able to spam them. Rule and mechanic wise, people can leave combat to restock their launchers, and it provides another exchange... high burst damage, very low stamina. You let a guy get away in combat, he comes back fully repaired, but now their is another risk of him suddenly being able to throw more burst damage around.... if he can't escape, he is down one gun in short order if he is bad with his missile usage.
Ammo count adjustments are definitely on the table. I want to gather a little bit more data before I start lowering them, but yea they'll probably need to be lowered to encourage more thoughtful use rather than full on spam. Current limits have been made with the assumption that server lag levels remain on 4.86 level, but (and we can thank Aet for that) the lag reducing was actually very successful and server loads are quite a bit lower than they were. So that helps missile tracking also.
I want to see missile uses in group fights though as well before any final decisions.
(09-19-2013, 01:02 PM)Trogdor Wrote: Were the tracking improvements made to fighter missiles also given to cap missile turrets?
No, and this thread is about fighter missiles. Cap missiles are not meant to chase after fighters, their purpose is to deliver high damage to other caps. If their tracking was improved, they'd once again be able to chase after fighters, which is undesirable. Feel free to open another thread about cap missiles if you have an idea in regards to what we could do to them.
(09-19-2013, 01:35 PM)belarusich Wrote: About gun hardpoints:
May be create additional hardpoint for missile only at each ship somewhere in middle of it, so ship will look symmetric
e.g. shield hardpoint on eagle - replace with missile hardpoint, hide shield at the bottom of ship like on Falcon
You did like that with Phantom
The idea behind missiles on VHFs is that people choose whether they go with 5 guns + missile, where the missile can be countered in a very specific way - or whether they go 6 guns for a more "traditional" fighting experience. The idea is to introduce an element of conscious choice into the loadout (other than minmaxing available level 9s with the nerfs that your faction gets that is). Inb4 borked hitboxes, yes we know and we're trying to find out where the problem lies. LFs have a slightly different setup: you can mount the missile on the torp/cd slot on LFs at the moment.
Asymmetry can work in your favour in pvp too, if you can make sure to keep your opponent on your missile launcher's side, ensuring lock-on.
As to looks... not many VHFs have a gun hardpoint that is already centred. I tried putting the missile hardpoint on a centred gun slot wherever possible, but it's not possible for all models without moving existing gun hardpoints.
Firestalker needs a speed nerf. You're looking for CM dropping to be a timing skill, but when you've got a missile flying towards you at close enough to 700m/s (both ship speeds plus missile speed) there's not a lot you can put down to timing. You either get a CM out before it hits or you don't. CDs don't work too, because the missiles are way too far away from your opponent before they'll detonate, or have even already got in damage range of your own ship.
Can't comment on the other missiles yet, as I've not been able to test with them at all yet. Looking at the stats though, the sidewinder and paralyzer probably do as well.
EDIT: And to add: Firestalkers vs. Cannonballs for total damage potential when considering ammo comes to Firestalkers having 55,000 more damage in total, while still tracking miles better, and with no risk of them blowing up on your face.
And on top of that, it would only take one guy with firestalkers to dry out someone's CMs completely, and still have a minimum of 30 missiles left to fire. 114000 free damage.