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+--- Thread: weps (/showthread.php?tid=3930)
weps - Drake - 09-20-2007
If you start arguing that weapons should be RP'd as incompatible with the ships of different factions, then everyone needs to stop using codenames. Unless, of course, you can prove which faction created that codename.
Using codenames or using any other looted weapon, it's the exact same thing. The only reason not to use either is if your specific faction has a problem with it.
weps - P*Funk - 09-20-2007
' Wrote:Yes but show me an example of a captured german 88 being mounted on an allied tank. Why would the turret and gun mountes of a Kusari ship be anywhere near compatible with those of a Bret? Salvage a gun shouldn't mean it just fits no problem.That may be true but just because the design doesn't allow direct compatibility doesn't mean that you can't adapt it. Though it is true that the Allies didn't mount 88s on their Shermans they did mount 17 pounder anti-tank guns on them and many of these newly dubbed "Wizard" tanks were old Shermans that had been retrofitted. So adapting a gun not originally for that particular set up is also a very common thing. Aside from the 17 pounder being allied made and the 88 being Axis I don't see the difference in the actual process of adapting a gun to an incompatible tank. The fact that the Allies never adapted 88s to their tanks doesn't mean that they couldn't have or maybe just that the 88 wasn't suitable in that case. Remember the Sherman was a limited machine, very much like the T-34, it was designed and adopted for its ease in mass production. And actually I do recall hearing something about Germans fitting some type of Russian tank gun to Axis tanks as a test of some kind. So to me a soldier loves his gun dearly, cares for it. So does a pilot. In correct RP, where ships aren't purchased willy nilly but where it is a special individual machine, you care for it and put innumerable hours into adapting the weapons and systems to your preference.
Now, buying a gun from the Zoners or a neutral faction that makes their own equipment, I can see them installing it for you and having kits to make it work on various ship types. But Kusari ain't makin that kit for the Brets and the Brets aren't likely to requisition such a thing from their own shipyards. Instead they'd just reverse engineer the gun and have someone make it for them.
But the military industrial complex + politics + pork barrel + bureacracy being what it is, that's not gonna happen:)
More exmaples could be that the MG-42 of WW2 got its barrel re-bored and became the MG3 but apparenlty they still use MG-42 parts, even with Swastica markings on them, for repair.
The morality and even plausibility of any weapon being adapted is there. Just because we can hit one button and get it mounted doesn't mean that we need to accept the action as being frivolous. The real hard bit is getting the bloody things. So if you restrict yourself to wrecks and dead enemies and maybe a random gun merchant every now and then then you can have a plausible reason to have the gun.
Faction can and will restrict the use of these weapons based on their chosen RP. However individually and in other factions there is just as much room for plausible reasons to use these so called 'enemy' weapons.
' Wrote:There's no interface for swapping out guns on most tanks. Weapon pylons on a fighter is a whole different matter. Furthermore, the precedent has already been set that ships can be mounted with all kinds of different guns made by several different organizations. How many different configurations does the game have for, say, the Hawk?Indeed and especially in the future of weaponry we see modular parts becoming standard. Ever notice how many guns look like an M16? Alot of different companies make them but many of their parts are interchangeable. In the future I think we can assume that they've made weaponry pretty standardized so that different weapon producers can all appeal to the same market en masse. Theres your RP. The non-RP answer is if you can mount it then it works.
CP
weps - Magoo! - 09-20-2007
Honestly... I use what's best. I really don't think the Liberty Navy (example) would care if you used an Order weapon (that you looted, say) as long is it helps kill bad guys.
weps - P*Funk - 09-21-2007
' Wrote:Honestly... I use what's best. I really don't think the Liberty Navy (example) would care if you used an Order weapon (that you looted, say) as long is it helps kill bad guys.I dunno, the SA seems pretty puritanical to me.:P
weps - Tom_Horn - 09-21-2007
' Wrote:Not as strict a limitation as that, but I see it as somewhat stricter than a pirate or many other characters. Only lawful or civilian weapons, for example, and not the weapons of any House or other factionwith which they're hostile (no BAF with Kusari weapons, etc.). Code names should obviously be available to anyone.
Weapons are just that, "Weapons." you find them, you use them. No matter, technology modifies them and makes them adapt. Just like allowing players to use the Nomads weapons. Find them, mount them, use them.
As for the "Codename Weapons", Want to know the real reason theres not any information on them?
Because they used too much energy and the pilot got his asre blown all to hell and never made it back to report if they were any good or not. That's why you can only find them on wrecks...wrecks of pilots that never made it back. "No information, Clsssified. " :crazy:
Tom_Horn aka; BorderMan, HunterKiller[X]
weps - P*Funk - 09-21-2007
' Wrote:Weapons are just that, "Weapons." you find them, you use them. No matter, technology modifies them and makes them adapt. Just like allowing players to use the Nomads weapons. Find them, mount them, use them.Exactly. Before America joined WW2 they needed a submachine gun to give to their squad leaders and assault elements of their infantry squads. At first many people didn't like the idea of using the Tommy gun because it was associated with gangsters. But bollocks to that and the used it anyway and it was a very useful gun.
Like I said, prudent armies don't care about who used to use it.
weps - alance - 09-21-2007
' Wrote:If you start arguing that weapons should be RP'd as incompatible with the ships of different factions, then everyone needs to stop using codenames. Unless, of course, you can prove which faction created that codename.I was just pointing out that using someone else's tank in battle isnt like ripping out their gun and putting it on yours. Mine was a retort to P Funk's reasoning, not a condemnation of the status quo.
And P Funk, I'm well aware of the Sherman Firefly (Wizard) which sported the british 17 pounder, but again you have a complete tank retrofitted by a tank builder in britain rather than a field swap of a gun. The radio had to be moved, the gun was mounted on its side, the back of the turret was cut open plus a lobe added to allow for the gun's recoil, and the bow mounted machine gun was deleted. Hardly something you'd do for a few salvaged guns, but certainly something you'd do if you had a thousand tanks lined up for retrofit.
Again, I'm not saying FL should disallow Faction A using guns from Faction B, I'm just debunking the tank example.
Aircraft munitions examples are better parallels, but again, hanging a gravity bomb from a rack is nothing compared to replacing the F-22's cannon with one from a Mig. All of these real world examples are faulty when used pro-weapon-swap. Unless Country A works with Country B specifically on weapons systems compatibility, it just doesn't happen.
weps - Logos - 09-22-2007
' Wrote:Not as strict a limitation as that, but I see it as somewhat stricter than a pirate or many other characters. Only lawful or civilian weapons, for example, and not the weapons of any House or other factionwith which they're hostile (no BAF with Kusari weapons, etc.). Code names should obviously be available to anyone.
I totally agree.
weps - ratmantoo - 12-17-2007
Interesting points.....however, captured weaponry is generally not used due to the ammunition. In South Africa our Military uses the R5 which is a remake of the AK47 with a few changes...ammunition is the same but the R5 can utilise the AK47 working mechanism but not the other way round.
Its a bit of topic as we are dealing with weapons that do not require ammo (except perhaps the missiles / torps and mines).
All in all - a weapon is a weapon no matter who made it. It may not be issued by the faction but it still serves its purpose.
Dont get me wrong... I am in agreement with not using "enemy" weaponry, just concerned that enforcing it could affect people playing on Disco. After all half the fun is trying different weapon configurations.