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+--- Thread: Information about upcoming Zoner changes (/showthread.php?tid=112325)
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Enkidu - 02-28-2014
(02-28-2014, 12:27 AM)sindroms Wrote: Then anything Tel Aniv posted, you are also proposing as cannon.
Claims which violate the pre-established lores of other groups can be ignored under such a system. I assume that was what you were alluding to?
(02-28-2014, 12:29 AM)Dead Reckoning Wrote:(02-28-2014, 12:27 AM)sindroms Wrote: Then anything Tel Aniv posted, you are also proposing as cannon.
Or any ZA related material, for that matter.
Case and point. The community is unfit to build the mod via RP.
That isn't what he is saying as the community has nearly unanimously rejected ZA RP.
Yeah, kudos to you Reckoning for getting that. I was referring to the opinion of the majority. If there's no sense of the major, dominant opinion, then should it really occur? (Back to the topic material here, where there clearly isn't such a consensus).
Essentially, if it harms the player bases to the point of provoking large numbers of players to quit at greater rates than they join, then that content alteration isn't going to receive much praise.
Edit: I'm sure the Devs are aware of the current boycott, even if they remain disdainful of the gesture.
EditEdit: Gee, I'm exhausted. Tomorrow it is.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - sindroms - 02-28-2014
My point is that it would be a lot better to have a small group, or even one person calling the shots of what is and what is not cannon. One person is easier to blame if it all goes south and one person can easily be replaced and his choices of lore, as such, vetoed.
If said lore is decided on by the community, it cannot be done.
It makes sense for such a system, because it can be easily controlled and corrected. Not democratic, no, but when has that worked as a system anyway. Not to mention the community is split into opinions. Something having a single person avoids.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Enkidu - 02-28-2014
(02-28-2014, 12:36 AM)sindroms Wrote: My point is that it would be a lot better to have a small group, or even one person calling the shots of what is and what is not cannon. One person is easier to blame if it all goes south and one person can easily be replaced and his choices of lore, as such, vetoed.
If said lore is decided on by the community, it cannot be done.
It makes sense for such a system, because it can be easily controlled and corrected. Not democratic, no, but when has that worked as a system anyway. Not to mention the community is split into opinions. Something having a single person avoids.
Human beings have a remarkable tendency to choose what is best for social survival. Hence why democracy exists near-everywhere within the present fabric of the world.
One small group's controlling and corrections may not be the controlling and corrections the server requires, nor desires. Such is the present case, regardless of what Jinx typed at the top of post one. I have ran the figures.
Edit: Ok, now I'm really going to bed.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - sindroms - 02-28-2014
Sleeeeeep....I will reply as soon as my vision is back again.
Cheers.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - .Gypsy. - 02-28-2014
I wasn't here for all the ZA stuff, but from what Ive heard and seen in the forums, this thread is a result of that... because they won. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that whats really happening here? Lore is the excuse being used to "put them in there place?" If they had lost, would this thread even exist? I can't help but wonder.. or am I way of base here?
Edit: Its seems I am off base on this as the plans to change the zoner line existed before the whole ZA thing happened, thanks to the person that explained things to me.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Coin - 02-28-2014
(02-27-2014, 10:24 PM)Kazinsal Wrote:So you agree that this retconn is unfair? then why are you pushing for it, despite the results of the recent poll, where twice the number of people vote for keeping the caps in one form or another rather than this change?(02-27-2014, 03:58 PM)Coin Wrote: really kaz?Yes, really.
(02-27-2014, 10:24 PM)Kazinsal Wrote:Oh man, this isn't personal at all. I really don't give a flying truck what you fly. All you had to do was write <rp reason>, and we could have moved on. I cannot stress how much i am indifferent to your personal choice of ship - however, I would like to discover if you have any bulldogNK tendencies. elucidating a reason for the CL to handover the tech would go a long way to assuage these fears.Quote:you've managed to ignore the question - 'Why are the CL licensed to hand out zoner tech?'Take your personal vendetta elsewhere.
(02-27-2014, 10:24 PM)Kazinsal Wrote:the thing is here that you have announced a major role play shift, or retconn, and the players involved are saying 'omg no plox' and they are not being heard. wherein lies the difference?Quote:development thing now is it? a few pages back it was about realism, until it was pointed out that the zoners are a wallpaper faction so SP wouldn't be over before trent got his jumpgate access, and now this is aboutThere can be multiple reasons behind a change. Would you rather we just implemented major ship role shifts like this without telling anyone?
(02-26-2014, 03:59 PM)Jinx Wrote: if it is decided that going for transparency was indeed a good idea opposed to simply give you the results when its done.
(02-27-2014, 10:24 PM)Kazinsal Wrote:but these aren't pixel ships, but stories. this isn't about pew=fun, but about the semblance of control; with this change you seem to be saying to the players involved 'know your place'. These are people who play games as much as you. the reason why we play a fragile server of a ten-year-old incomplete game is because of the input we canhave in the direction of the mod. However, this is a great big wet fish in the face of that dream. I agree that in WoW or EvE there is next to no PDC, but that is the way that the industry is moving. All else is petty tyranny and empire building.Quote:<final nail snipped>Or you could just chill out about pixel ships and follow the wise words of dusty's grandma: "she says to be roleplay".
if you think this is personal, or about pixel ships, well, I'm sorry but your reality check is lost in the post.
I got involved in this one-sided discussion as i am neutral on this affair. I don't own caps (horrible things, fly a titan instead), and I don't zoner. The majority of the people who have an opinion about this either a)zoner b)cap c)both, but the cries of 'cap-whore' and 'I am jealous of your neutrality and enormous zoi' are barely submerged in the rebuttals to their vociferous complaints of how shabbily their dreams have been shattered.
my opinion that this is wrong is based around:
1. politics. both you and jinx should have bowed out of announcing these changes. no man is an island.
2. lore based retconns should be applied evenly, not to one faction
3. gameplay. allowing people to do what they want = PDC = the mod writes itself. making people follow a script = SP
4. development: making people feel that their contribution is valued is very important. I have often heard from devs that the community rants against their contributions. Well, reality check, in RL, if no-one likes your contribution, they do not tell you. you actually have to pay for market research for that to work out why your company isn't making mega-trillions every femtosecond. you don't get paid, true. but you get free bug-fixing (we post reports) and free market research (threads like this). I can see why you feel threatened; follow that line of emotion back to the source. Rot starts at the core.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Kazinsal - 02-28-2014
1. Unfair? Possibly. Realistic? Yes.
2. Presumably, if a faction as large and as powerful as the Outcasts have one of a ship type (which they do), and they are able to build and support a fleet of warships, then they are able to reverse engineer it or at least its hull structure -- the latter is all I had asked for (the Raiders have many specimens to kitbash together on paper and then send off to Aquila Defense Systems to make it happen). And I'm actually quite insulted by the insinuation that I'm exhibiting tendencies alike BULLDOGNK.
3. They are heard. Whether or not the dev team agrees with their stance is not the same as whether or not I agree with their stance.
4. This change is not a "you are wrong, we are right, render unto Caesar" but rather a "listen, this whole issue is because of a mistake made several years ago and nothing has come up to keep things going as they are, so we're reverting some questionable decisions."
Do you remember when the Aquilon wasn't a Zoner capital ship, and then it became one because Igiss thought for some reason it would be a good idea, but no lore was made to justify it? We do.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Dead Reckoning - 02-28-2014
(02-28-2014, 03:35 AM)Kazinsal Wrote: 1. Unfair? Possibly. Realistic? Yes.
2. Presumably, if a faction as large and as powerful as the Outcasts have one of a ship type (which they do), and they are able to build and support a fleet of warships, then they are able to reverse engineer it or at least its hull structure -- the latter is all I had asked for (the Raiders have many specimens to kitbash together on paper and then send off to Aquila Defense Systems to make it happen). And I'm actually quite insulted by the insinuation that I'm exhibiting tendencies alike BULLDOGNK.
3. They are heard. Whether or not the dev team agrees with their stance is not the same as whether or not I agree with their stance.
4. This change is not a "you are wrong, we are right, render unto Caesar" but rather a "listen, this whole issue is because of a mistake made several years ago and nothing has come up to keep things going as they are, so we're reverting some questionable decisions."
Do you remember when the Aquilon wasn't a Zoner capital ship, and then it became one because Igiss thought for some reason it would be a good idea, but no lore was made to justify it? We do.
My biggest complaint is not that something is happening to the Neph. Back when the big ZA pew fest was going on and people were talking about the Neph being too much for Zoners, I agreed. My complaint is that the shipline is being totally scrapped.
Why not just adjust the stats on the existing models so that they are less like dreadnoughts and more like colony ships? Leave the Persephones as the elusive warship and dump the Nephs stats to make it what it actually is: a colony ship.
1,500,000 armor? Try 1,000,000
4 heavies, 4 prims? Try 2 heavies or even no heavies.
I want to keep RPing my ship as a colony ship with the model it has. I don't troll with it. I don't engage people with it. I follow my ID to the letter and I avoid firefights in any and all cases possible. (because I carry a colony and that would be reckless to charge into a fight that I can escape from)
Having it taken away and being given a battle transport is not in the spirit of the RP I want to have with it.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Trogdor - 02-28-2014
(02-27-2014, 10:29 PM)Kazinsal Wrote:1) So I get to pay 250 million credits to keep a ship I've already paid for and repped. Joy.(02-27-2014, 10:25 PM)Trogdor Wrote: The mountain of extra work required?SRPs are pretty easy now, if you really want your battleship turrets that badly.
The frustration of having to do backflips to reclaim something they already put the work into obtaining?
2) My every action will be scrutinized by the admins, my roleplay now needs to meet a much higher standard of quality, and I need to keep churning out new roleplay to meet the 'check-in' requirements. Again, to retain something I already had, was enjoying, and not abusing. That kind of pressure sounds like fun.
3) "The SRP application must have an extensive forum background". Most of my roleplay has been ingame, as was acceptable up until now.
It's not just about the turrets. It's about everything that a capital ship represents, a ship designed to protect and fight for the nation that built it. The Zoners, being a major backbone of quasilegal trade, have at least as much justification to field these ships as the Corsairs, Outcasts, and Hessians do. Space is dangerous, and the Zoners need to be able to stick up for themselves on this level.
Quote:Most of your posts that I have read in this thread have been bickering over whether this whole thing is a vendetta. If you have indeed explained why, and don't feel like repeating yourself, could you at least give me an idea on which pages I should be looking?Quote:Also, there's the question of "why are the devs doing this at all?"I think I've explained this several times over the past 50 pages.
Quote:Where are all the Zoner BS sanction reports then? In countless threads on this subject in the past, people claim 'the lolwuts' are abusing them. Yet they never have any evidence to validate that this abuse is actually taking place.Quote:Not because of any actual problem going on, such as rampant abuse.See: most of my posts about this.
Quote:When the official factions submit lore changes to us, we make that happen.Indicative of an actual problem with the Zoners that should be addressed. We need an official faction that actually looks out for the overall wellbeing of the Zoners. What we have right now would be like if IC and the Junkers were the official factions of the Liberty Navy. TAZ and OSI only tend to their own roleplay (as they should) but this leaves a vaccuum.
When no one submits any lore changes, well, we have to make some up ourselves.
RE: Information about upcoming Zoner changes - Dead Reckoning - 02-28-2014
(02-28-2014, 08:10 AM)Trogdor Wrote: words
I agree. I was just looking at getting back into Disco and dusting off my old ships after a month or so hiatus when I find that my favorite deep space diplomatic capital is getting turned into a transport. Now if this were to go through, I would have to devote far more time to an SRP to maintain it and would not be able to play that character casually.