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+--- Thread: Too much NPCs (/showthread.php?tid=180673)
RE: Too much NPCs - Grumblesaur - 06-11-2020
(06-11-2020, 10:44 PM)LuckyOne Wrote: You are twisting my words now. Yes, I started my example with a pirate flying his cruiser into the center of a House but immediately followed it with an equal counter-point of Navy patrol venturing into lawless territory. The result should be the same: trespassers end up dead unless they significantly outnumber the NPCs.
If you had bothered to read my post to the end maybe you would have noticed I proposed some alternative solutions that could be looked into too...
Oh, and another point that might be looked into. If a NPC base is disabled, will the patrol NPCs continue to spawn on it?
Quote:Because it takes out immersion if a pirate can just walk up with his loaded cruiser to the most guarded place in the House and start shooting without any consequence. It's the equivalent of me driving a tank into the White House and demanding to "duel" the President. Same thing for Navy to walk into a pirate stronghold.
Quote:if a pirate can just walk up with his loaded cruiser to the most guarded place in the House and start shooting without any consequence.
Quote:the most guarded place in the House and start shooting without any consequence.
Quote:without any consequence.
In saying this, you implied that I argued that my goal was to prevent any consequences at all from happening. I am not twisting your words. You handled them poorly yourself.
RE: Too much NPCs - Binski - 06-11-2020
(06-11-2020, 10:30 PM)Darkstar_Spectre Wrote:(06-11-2020, 10:19 PM)Binski Wrote: *wall of text*
i thought your ideas were too good for us mere mortals who dont read huge ass walls of pointless text. why are you sharing them again?
Still fighting the good fight to share some enlightenment around. Its badly needed. I also seek to help expand shrinking attention spans by hiding valuable information within my walls of text.
RE: Too much NPCs - Alex. - 06-11-2020
(06-11-2020, 10:35 PM)Kazinsal Wrote: What I'm getting out of this is that the new server is so beefy (or as the kids say, "chad") that the number of NPCs is actually where it should have been in the first place, and that I need to go back and rewrite a chunk of PvEController to handle the intended NPC count under standard load.
Let's nerf the server
RE: Too much NPCs - Grumblesaur - 06-11-2020
(06-11-2020, 10:48 PM)Archaetherial Wrote: Again, you are presuming too much and rolling out with unfounded accusations and insults, Grumblesaur.
If this is how you conduct discussions then I am afraid I will have to end this one soon, because I will not stand for that much longer.
Show some respect.
I am not going to show you any respect if you continue to ignore my argument, twist it to suit your purposes, and clutch your pearls the second I point that out.
(06-11-2020, 10:48 PM)Archaetherial Wrote: You are yet again mistaken. I pointed out your assumption is wrong, because it was wrong. I do not think law enforcement should be omnipresent. They should however maintain heavy presence in certain central areas and those are the areas I was talking about.
Perhaps I should clarify what I mean. Within lawfully controlled zones, the law enforcement patrols are omnipresent, or effectively so. That is, patrols will always spawn there and always at the strength (which is quite high) that they are programmed to. Sometimes NPC patrols don't spawn, sometimes they do. Part of this is unavoidable due to the way the engine works. But when they are present, strong as they are, they dominate the zone, taking a responsibility that I think players should have, which is defense and patrol of planets, stations, and their environs.
Hence I mean for there to be weaker NPCs, and perhaps with patrol zones that are staggered in such a way that they aren't all heavily concentrated in one zone (usually the docking ring side of the planet). Contrary to my own complaints of omnipresence, this would put them in more places, but also reduce their power projection/area denial because their firepower is distributed over a wider area, making any one particular spot less deadly, but still a threat.
Weaker NPCs in these major points of interest would also mean that accidental aggro, either from misfired ordnance or from unfortunate faction empathies, would be less likely to blast unsuspecting lawful or neutral players, in addition to giving unlawful players a little more room to conduct raids.
(06-11-2020, 10:48 PM)Archaetherial Wrote: I will correct myself and clarify that you do not want to make it completely equal, but to decrease the disparity.
It was not an attemp at strawmanning your entire argument, but an extrapolation and maybe certain oversimplification of your stance. I stand corrected.
What difference does it make?
I agree with that disparity and believe it is logical, valid and should remain.
Unlawfuls should have a hard time in central, heavy traffic areas of House space. They should be harrassed by NPCs.
I have no problem with an asymmetry between lawfuls and unlawfuls; I just think the current degree of asymmetry is unnecessarily high, and that nerfing some NPCs would be a way to reduce it.
(06-11-2020, 10:48 PM)Archaetherial Wrote: Also, what I omitted in my previous post despite you finishing with it and emboldening it. I think NPCs should serve precisely that reason to fill out that power vacuum that you claim they don't have to fill.
And last, but not least, why are you treating this discussion like a fight and attempt to undermine people with different opinions than your own?
Because, by experience, I have come to expect as much from this community. This doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, but it often feels as if a little tenacity and bite is necessary to call attention to anything at all, as a verbose proposal is so often met with disdain and mockery, a short suggestion is dismissed out of hand, and a friendly crowd-pleaser argument will be picked apart for naivete, factual or otherwise.
If I come across as hostile, it's because I'm frustrated with a tendency of the community at large to pass over complexity and nuance. I don't particularly like this rhetoric myself, but it seems almost necessary at times.
(06-11-2020, 10:48 PM)Archaetherial Wrote: You present certain views and I present others. I'm not making pitiful attempts at undermining the logic of your arguments and forcing accusations of strawmanning or hypocrisy like you are trying to do. I simply take note of your opinions, but disagree.Calling my style of discourse "pitiful", which is a word that rarely ever has positive connotations, is a poor choice as you claim to be calm and uninflammatory. Granted, I don't know whether your native language is English, so perhaps some of your mannerisms are cultural or personal idiosyncracies which are at odds with the conventions of dialogue as I am familiar with them.
RE: Too much NPCs - sajuuk111 - 06-11-2020
(06-11-2020, 10:59 PM)Alex. Wrote:(06-11-2020, 10:35 PM)Kazinsal Wrote: What I'm getting out of this is that the new server is so beefy (or as the kids say, "chad") that the number of NPCs is actually where it should have been in the first place, and that I need to go back and rewrite a chunk of PvEController to handle the intended NPC count under standard load.
Let's nerf the server
I really enjoy the current amount of NPCs, it feels like the space is alive! Really loved that and hope you dont nerf the amount too much! have a great day
RE: Too much NPCs - Linerges - 06-12-2020
Ahh, so much of debates... I'm the one standing for more NPC, rather then empty space with 30 players crawling somewhere far away. If you disagree and refuse to read tons of arguments - read next posts. You've been warned!
I see that people blame NPC because of impossibility to stay near higly-secured areas. Well... that is why they are HIGLY SECURED, right? In reality you cannot break into any office of NYPD ALONE (!) and stay cocky and alive, robbing people around.
So you're also blaming NPC for their failure to RP - great, I see your point clearly. But I can also see that these pieces of code can talk IN A VOICE, which you or any live person here cannot. You might bring a great RP and text us some genuine lines, but in complete silence Freelancer never gonna work for me. Many space-exploring games have such mechanic, where NPC make a radio-talking - this give players atmosphere, makes them BELIEVE in this world. Your texting RP must ALIGN to this world, not CHANGE or completely deny it.
If you really want to be an RP pirate - make it real with catching traders aside from secured space (traders can be motiveted to be there for high margin vs very low in safe space) OR make some raids! Outnumber and outgun defences of those nasty lawful highly-secured bases and dominate there. If you come to a planet with just a pair of small fighters - you are not a threat and such actions is not a serious, well-planned raid. So you blame, that NPC doesn't bring any RP - you're wrong, they DO. They makes highly-secured places protected and demanding a higly-threating raid as opposed, not some random dudes on flying washtubs. You want live persons to catch you? Write in world's chat that #random pirate faction# is spotted in #random system name# and have fun fighting and RP-ing with those, who you so desperately looking for. If you want to make pirate and terrorist stuff in a middle of active and busy world without bringing attention - you have some serious problems with logic and undertanding where you are. Maybe you get used too much to empty server without "life". "Life", that was in original game we all so love and appreciate. Well, since we play the game for more than 17 years - we have to love it desperately, I guess
Good point showing people, who wants immersion, "New game" button. But, you see, Discovery is not a server only for joy of pirates and PvP. Some people also want to play in coop, which is also great. Or be peacefully helpful for other players - not all of us have murder instincts hidden deep inside of our skulls, you know. That's why I play it - to relax and joy the game, the world of it. I don't like empty space with a few guys who seeks reasons to start "pew"-ing each other or those, who love to send a PR-poems to each other instead of making more realistic radio conversations.
I want to play Freelancer as it was + live people in it. I refuse to play in decorations of this game with some random dudes lurking along emptyness - for such experience I can find another game.
Of course, I can find another server, but there ain't much of them and I like the story Discovery community created - this is amazing work, which is quite interesting to join.
You talked so much about how important your RP is against NPC. Well, that is your RP and of few other dudes. Unfortunately, there ain't much of you in numbers. Most people do some crappy RP or doesn't do it at all. There are many of them, way more than people like you. So you want to this world be consisted of such people? Ain't fun, ain't RP. NPC is required to make this world live. Yes, they shoot you just because you red. But that is OK! You are their enemy. WHY they have to wait until you say something? Even in real world there are many people who will just punch their obvious enemies without a word. I don't understand when people want to be a part of this world with their RP while completely negating basic laws of this game: if systems paints you red as "enemy" - you are enemy. I think you never get an idea to stop shooting and speak with NPC? Ever tried to taunt them or make some other lines, which can fit the situation and typical behavior of NPC? Most of you just ignore them, which is quite crazy - you ignore part of world you want to be a part of. Nah... such RP is not a true one. It is a simple imitation that you try to elevate here as of something more meaningfull.
Those who really can in RP, with complete understanding and accepting of all those details and mechanics, will not whining here about NPC - they will accept it and play their RP around it because this is an essential part of this world.
After all, there ain't much of people on this server. I came back to Discovery after a few years just because there are so many GOOD changes appeared and one of them - NPC spawn. It brings back that old warm feeling of real Freelancer, not some plastic "RP Server". Real persons never gonna align to this world completely, all they have to do - is to make it more random and sometimes dangerous, but not completely erase a hefty part of this game. You have to realize, that this ain't EVE, as someone mentioned before - this world is small and played by less then 100 people by most of the time. Same 100 people over and over again... it kills me. World of Freelancer is a huge galactic with hundreds of planets, billions of people, thousands of spacecrafts! And you want to replace all of it by that hundred persons? People, who made and keep supporting Discovery made it because of love for this game, for this world. I'm sure, that if thery wanted for a chat with PvP function, they never gonna tell any of those stories about nations, their achievements and losses, complication of story and world itself.
Little offtop about POB:
People also whining about POB destruction. And I would also be very upset of loosing so much time and effort just because some dudes decided to make a "boom". Well, let's make POBs more, way more easy to create and support. It will allow people to raid them more often without cries on forum, it will also give more RP sense for those, who want to make raids on enemies. Especially if you give some rewards for destruction of POB, like resources, left in ruins. Yes, easy-to-set POBs will spam this world, but may be easily erased by raiders and opposite lawfuls during war. There you will get your "Puebo Station attack like in original game" without hugging unreakable stations and planets.
Care of your POB? Well, POB is not for a single player, it is for a group. So gather group and make some kind of guarding patrol or, maybe, admins may add spawn of heavy NPC patrols of your faction nearby? Since NPC are bringed back, we may use them for something good too.
The bigger and wealthy your POB - the more guarded it may be with heavier and/or more frequent partrols of NPC around it. AND it may become a great target for raid, if we will make reward for raiding dependable on wealthy level of that base.
Stay safe, pilots!
RE: Too much NPCs - Hemlocke - 06-12-2020
Linerges = new Binski
RE: Too much NPCs - Hubjump - 06-12-2020
(06-11-2020, 05:39 PM)Grumblesaur Wrote: I think this would be best approached with some high-danger and low-danger zones. Every faction should have some dangerous NPCs to ward off foes from an area of interest, but also to give players some emergent PVE to do that doesn't involve starting a mission. Allowing opposing factions' high-danger areas to intersect would create little NPC fight arenas that wandering players could dip into for some credits, and carry on their way.
I think it's important to avoid putting all of the high-level NPCs near bases. Having a defense grid made up of VHFs with stupid-accurate shotguns would only encourage players to camp their bases (as we see with the already excruciatingly well-defended lawful house planets). Normal wimp NPCs should be in zones where player interaction is common and expected, while the beefcake murderhobo NPCs would be better off the trade lane grid, at points where the lines between jump holes or mining zones intersect.
This would emphasize the "space is dangerous" idea that the community likes to talk about without making a stray CD in a populated zone an instant death sentence for someone who fatfingers their keyboard while they're talking to another playet.
I like the idea but I would have planets and other "population centres" as high danger. Because you're not exactly meant to be safe in the most active and populated region of space which would obviously be protected and patrolled especially concerning NL and the story. Hell I even wish Cambridge had more life as there isn't much reason to go there considering Dublin cruise is faster than tradelanes to exeter atm but I digress.
(06-11-2020, 06:22 PM)Genocide Jill Wrote: You said it yourself what you did wrong - you tried to pirate a transport close to a station. These places are supposed to be dangerous for unlawfuls.
4.3 If a player combat docks in a transport they may remain in the system for the sole purpose of trading only.
Random stations shouldn't be too high danger unless maybe if it's a military spot away from any useful location long a trading route maybe but pirating next to a station is rather silly considering they can just dock and do something else to make money until it's safe again. Don't pirate next to stations.
(06-11-2020, 06:35 PM)darkwind Wrote: Exactly.
Huge amount of NPCs favors only lawful side, creating 'blockade' like movable Weapon Platforms, and flipping capital ships in addition
Raiding stuttgart where? I remember Caps only used to spawn around planets before I wouldn't think this to be too much of a problem unless you're at the planet which again is a population center and would obviously be protected. it would generate activity if POB's were build in these areas and took more effort to take down (If the besiegers didn't siege on off times and the defenders actually existed looking at RM rn)
(06-11-2020, 07:22 PM)Archaetherial Wrote: Just like a corporate ships would be blasted by Corsair NPCs outside of Crete.
I would agree that ideally it should be players doing that and not NPCs, but that's not possible with the minute server population that we have.
Yeah p much. There isn't anything stopping you from treating NPC's like players in an encounter other than the possibility that the other player just doesn't and ends up blowing them up without a second thought and all that. That circles back to it interrupts RP but all I can say is with what we got to work with we just have to try and RP away from places where your GB or cruiser might be ganked by a random cap patrol. Because it makes sense that it's there, it's just that it doesn't RP back before engaging as a military player would if they were present.
(06-11-2020, 07:30 PM)Grumblesaur Wrote: There is an underlying assumption in this statement that law enforcement patrols cover every portion of lawful space at any given time. Freelancer's distorted, unrealistically small scale compounds this issue. The orbits of planets are huge. Entire star systems are enormous. In the real world, it's impossible to thoroughly keep a city under watch in all places at all times. No Navy can see every square nautical mile of the ocean at once.
Space is far larger than a city or an ocean, and far more sparse. To say that NPCs are there to catch every smuggler or foolhardy pirate is nonsense, and is already contradicted by the fact that we have atmospheric entry points that allow factions hostile to the primary owners of a planet to land there.
Just because somebody can be there does not mean that someone will always be there.
Scanners my dude, I'm sure a planet could easily detect you and be like "HOSTILES! SEND OUT SHIPS TO INTERCEPT!" before the planet gets bombed like NL,Leeds or that snowy planet from the story whose name escapes me right now.
(06-11-2020, 08:12 PM)Erremnart Wrote: Well, atmospheric points to major planets are very good idea. That would allow for some nice smugging, and it would promote freighter's play.
Buff smuggling <3
(06-11-2020, 08:34 PM)Lambda 4 Wrote: But this is RP server and it's for RP and PvP...it isn't Discovery Freelancer 24/7 PvE server, come on guys be serious
Here, lets take some logic...imagine a real New York city that is guarded by tanks and armoured vehicles 24/7, no logic right, just like the New York planet. Area 51 is guarded and like that, Alaska and Zone 21 would be guarded in game.
There aren't foreign tanks pillaging in America but instead petty crime so bring a bomber or well armed fighter. The fact gunboats can get close to a capital planet is extraordinary to begin with.
(06-11-2020, 09:51 PM)Grumblesaur Wrote: When players are present, their power projection is felt. When they are absent, they have left a hole. NPCs do not have to fill that hole.
I mean they fill it pretty damn well... This game is nothing without missions to some of us and nothing without npc's when flying about. It's hollow and that hollowness does nothing for the mind you just begin to feel lonely doing what you'd prefer to be doing rather than going out of your way to take part in rp in a place and faction you don't care for or like. It's why not everyone who plays in the omicrons plays down around bretonia and why all brets don't all also play around the omicrons and other comparisons can be made but you should get my point. But this response to a quote has to be my most opinionated thus far because that hole might not feel has lonely when empty as other people might feel it. But I personally do far much prefer seeing NPC's derp about.
(06-11-2020, 10:51 PM)Grumblesaur Wrote: In saying this, you implied that I argued that my goal was to prevent any consequences at all from happening. I am not twisting your words. You handled them poorly yourself.
Hypocritical coming from me of all people but if the message has been completely misunderstood and they can't see what you meant it might be best to give up trying to convince these people.
Woah thats one big wall to a single reply. I've kept mine to certain parts. I couldn't possibly write an essay about a rock like he could. Also I'm surprised this even became a multi page thread as it doesn't seem like that much of a complex issue. The only things to be considered are RP encounters in certain orbits/areas and grinding which well... Missions are great now so there isn't really reason to openly farm unless we got like... Hampshire and Dundee on steroids. That would be cool. Oh and also not having the server feel completely empty when you're doing what you'd prefer to do. That too.
RE: Too much NPCs - Swallow - 06-12-2020
Does it mean sci data can be harvested again?
RE: Too much NPCs - darkwind - 06-12-2020
(06-12-2020, 05:07 AM)Swallow Wrote: Does it mean sci data can be harvested again?
Yes, That's at least one plus from it.
So what are stats for server load now?