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+--- Thread: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID (/showthread.php?tid=116008)
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - Zen_Mechanics - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 03:51 PM)Sabre Wrote:(05-30-2014, 03:47 PM)St.Denis Wrote:(05-30-2014, 03:15 PM)Snak3 Wrote: Painted Map showing restricted systems
So why didn't you also colour in the places that they can't physically reach unless they somehow jump there?
How will they get to places likes Ames? Or the Freeport in Bering?
because caps dont need to go to places like FP2 and ames. same as caps dont need to go to penn.
Really, Like who made you a god to tell someone that he shouldnt, plus - penny is at bottom a zonnie system, despite the phila treaty - some would visit the place for relatives, or in my case - pickup zoners who can't afford the travel. Not all of us are keen to use oorp methods. Also, perhaps its time to backfire this subject and attack the junkers, you know - because its the right thing to do and i feel that they are too overpowered, stronger infact now that they have lyth. Having an official faction doesn't grant you an extra voice and frankly, Im not the first one puzzled by your "remove this remove that thread". Keep your stuff to yourself and focus on your faction and stop telling others how their faction should run.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - rainth345 - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 04:28 PM)lIceColon Wrote: Actually there is. the current house laws are fine. OC and Zoners may occasionally log their caps in NY and be lolwut, it is your duty as an RP'er to treat it inrply as a surprising exception, while at the same time being weary oorply.
Might I just stop you there for a moment...
The fact that your reason (as a Zoner Captain of a Large Capital Ship) for coming to Liberty is nearly.. and I say NEARLY... OORP being as a Zoner is the reason that the Zoner Cap Ship problem is being dealt OORPly.
I don't have to tell you why Zoners became Zoners right? I'm sure... AS A ZONER PLAYER yourself that you understand why the Zoners became the Zoners in the first place...
As a Zoner Captain bringing himself inside of a House, you'd be essentially erasing the point of being a Zoner.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - Thyrzul - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 02:12 PM)lIceColon Wrote: not this oorp limiting.
What is ooRP in the limits IDs set to you?
(05-30-2014, 02:12 PM)lIceColon Wrote: unbelievable ... the fact that 800 years into the future and there still isn't complete human unity and universal peace yet.
We are two millenia after Jesus, and there is still isn't complete human unity and universal peace yet. What's so unbelievable in human nature?
(05-30-2014, 02:12 PM)lIceColon Wrote: If a zoner cap engages the navy in alaska, whose to say that is an impossible event? Whose to say it isn't a capital ship crowd funded by rich idiots who are dumb enough to violate liberty laws?
If Alaska by lore is a secret system, well protected both inside and the passages leading to it, there is no way anything unauthorized would reach it intact. Just because it cannot be represented properly in-game doesn't mean it's ooRP and your random lone Zoner cap can be there inRP.
(05-30-2014, 02:12 PM)lIceColon Wrote: It certainly is possible in real life, if rich southern secessionists build up a mini war machine in secret and they trespess on the US military grounds, it is a possible event despite it being incredibly stupid, but are we not allowed to rp incredibly stupid people?
Sure we are allowed to RP incredibly stupid people. But not incredibly impossible situations.
(05-30-2014, 02:12 PM)lIceColon Wrote: I hate factionlancer, I hate that the rules are more and more oriented towards limiting people towards a archetypical roleplay rather than the individuality that some players want. I'm not gonna work for my enjoyment because I already do that in real life. I fly my ship how I want to with my inrp justifications, you don't have enough evidence against me.
You got your IDs for your individual roleplay you want, they are called Freelancer ID, Miner ID, Pirate ID, and I hope eventually Zoner ID will become a generic one to work the same way. But keep in mind, you will not be permitted anything without proper limits, no mary sue characters are accepted.
(05-30-2014, 02:39 PM)lIceColon Wrote: Come on guys "designed for omicrons" honestly, don't you think a ship made for the deep space exploration would be able to handle shallow space exploration as well?
What to explore in a well-explored part of space?
(05-30-2014, 02:12 PM)lIceColon Wrote: banning their prescence all together oorp-ly is just wrong.
It's not ooRP.
(05-30-2014, 02:12 PM)lIceColon Wrote: whose to say zoners aren't occasionally interested in occasional visits to house space and visits to house planets and observe house nebulaes etc?
Who's to say you can't do that in a way you don't disturb others while doing so?
(05-30-2014, 04:02 PM)lIceColon Wrote: No, its militant but defensively so. CONTEXT, man, if RL were more like Disco you'd be suicidal not to drive around in a tank.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure nobody would mind an unarmed cap with thick armor blocking high traffic in house space... hey, it's just defensive.
(05-30-2014, 04:02 PM)lIceColon Wrote: Because my crew want to sightsee as well and if would just be simpler if we took our own tour bus.
As other said before me: Go, use a liner.
(05-30-2014, 04:02 PM)lIceColon Wrote: It's called tourism, sometimes just a plain simple shore leave or refit. It may have been explored, but you haven't explored it yet. Adventuring tourists might wanna join Zoners because they're the full package - heavy duty protection, a big comfy ship, neutrality to potential criminals, an ship-wide community and exploration of everything from the orbit of a house moon to the furthest end of deep space, that is something the OS&C cannot say they offer.
I hardly think anything with Zoner origins could come any close to be on par with OS&C when it comes to tourism, but of course you can try in a liner.
(05-30-2014, 04:02 PM)lIceColon Wrote: That would be the case if zoners were just a random freelancers who have no prior reputation whatsoever who suddenly poped outta nowhere with their immense firepower.
Zoners ARE "random freelancers" on the edge of the sector, to put it roughly, they are not one cohesive entity. And it's pretty much what happened back around 4.82 (or when the caps were added) what you described.
(05-30-2014, 04:02 PM)lIceColon Wrote: But the Zoner IFF is at least to a certain extent supposed to be a symbol of non hostility, and given the (in LORE) rare occurrence of zoners initiating hostility, they should have the diplomacy and reputation to allow them to pass through house spaces by default.
That symbol of non-hostility has been compromised pretty much by the lolwuts wandering into house-space with their Zoner caps and circumventing the "self-defense only" restriction of the ID, provoking hostilities instead of initiating. Their reputation is affected by the fact that they escaped house space in the first place.
(05-30-2014, 04:02 PM)lIceColon Wrote: Who are you to dictate that? Who are you to say than an indie capship's RP cannot compel it to go to those places?
Who are you to dictate where should those caps be able to go? On what basis do you claim they should have business on those stations, for what reason should they, what kind of business they couldn't conduct in a way they don't break house laws?
(05-30-2014, 04:38 PM)Zen_Mechanics Wrote: Really, Like who made you a god to tell someone that he shouldnt, plus - penny is at bottom a zonnie system, despite the phila treaty - some would visit the place for relatives, or in my case - pickup zoners who can't afford the travel. Not all of us are keen to use oorp methods.
Visiting relatives - can be done with any shipclass.
Transporting Zoners - can be done with any shipclass, cargo ships are optimal.
None of the examples you gave or will ever be able to give would warrant the use of a capital vessel, doing these things in a transport is not ooRP. Drawing attention by doing these in a cap ship as a Zoner IS ooRP, because it results in consequences not in favor of a Zoner.
Transporting Zoners - can be done with any shipclass, cargo ships are optimal.
None of the examples you gave or will ever be able to give would warrant the use of a capital vessel, doing these things in a transport is not ooRP. Drawing attention by doing these in a cap ship as a Zoner IS ooRP, because it results in consequences not in favor of a Zoner.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - Savas - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 04:02 PM)lIceColon Wrote:(05-30-2014, 02:52 PM)Savas Wrote: But considering the amount of damage battleship guns can do to things iRP, and the strong armor value of the Nephilim, the Houses that govern their respective space are entirely justified in not permitting them there. Perhaps a Nephy should be able to travel through house space if it chooses to eschew its guns and stay away from trade lanes while traveling through. Otherwise, no sane government iRP would allow them in their territory.
That would be the case if zoners were just a random freelancers who have no prior reputation whatsoever who suddenly poped outta nowhere with their immense firepower. But the Zoner IFF is at least to a certain extent supposed to be a symbol of non hostility, and given the (in LORE) rare occurrence of zoners initiating hostility, they should have the diplomacy and reputation to allow them to pass through house spaces by default.
Zoners are not a uniformed demographic, every colony ship barring a few circumstances is different and would have a different reputation with authorities. Regardless of your interpretation of their IFF/ID/Lore, if a House does not want foreign capital ships possessing weaponry and armor of a high magnitude passing through their territory, it is a completely justifiable law and the Houses themselves are not wrong for barring them. Moreover, as for 'playing god' and 'telling people what they can and can't do', the Houses have the undeniable right to do so inside of their borders, within the scope of logic and the rules.
Thyrzul said it pretty well.
Thyrzul Wrote:Zoners ARE "random freelancers" on the edge of the sector, to put it roughly, they are not one cohesive entity. And it's pretty much what happened back around 4.82 (or when the caps were added) what you described.
If a community of Zoners finds themselves so desperate to go sightseeing in a place they purposely left for an express purpose years ago, they should utilize the presumable massive hangar bays on their colony ships to man smaller craft for tourism and what ever else they plan on doing whilst leaving the colony ship itself outside of House space.
Quote:Besides, that is an inrp law, unrelated to the oorp restrictions proposed.
Many a line of ID restrictions have been written in accordance with the RP of the faction represented on the ID itself, therefore both iRP and ooRP arguments are relevant.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - Lythrilux - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 04:12 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote:(05-30-2014, 03:25 PM)Lythrilux Wrote:(05-30-2014, 03:15 PM)Snak3 Wrote: Painted Map showing restricted systems
Actually.... That wasn't what I envisioned. If rather stop them going to these systems:
Liberty
New York
Alaska
California
Colorado
Ontario
Texas
Alberta
Illinois
Kansas
Minnesota
New Hampshire
Pennsylvania
Virginia
Bretonia
New London
Cambridge
Dublin
Leeds
Manchester
Newcastle
Dundee
Edinburgh
Poole
Salisbury
Kusari
New Tokyo
Hokkaido
Honshu
Kyushu
Shikoku
Fukuoka
Hiroshima
Nagano
Oita
Tottori
Rheinland
New Berlin
Dresden
Frankfurt
Hamburg
Munich
Stuttgart
Braunschweig
Bremen
Halle
Koeln
Gallia
Ile-de-France
Berry
Burgundy
Maine
Orleanais
Picardy
Anjou
Artois
Auvergne
Corse
Franche-Comte
Savoie
This was taken from the rules.
The rules state explicitly that House space is defined like this when relating to docking restrictions:
Liberty
New York
Alaska
California
Colorado
Ontario
Texas
Bretonia
New London
Cambridge
Dublin
Leeds
Manchester
Newcastle
Kusari
New Tokyo
Hokkaido
Honshu
Kyushu
Shikoku
Rheinland
New Berlin
Dresden
Frankfurt
Hamburg
Munich
Stuttgart
Gallia
Ile-de-France
Berry
Burgundy
Maine
Orleanais
Picardy
I suggest employing the correct set of rules.
To avoid confusion, it'd be better to go with my list of system as they perfectly match up with the Discovery System Map.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - Jack_Henderson - 05-30-2014
Quote:To avoid confusion, it'd be better to go with my list of system as they perfectly match up with the Discovery System Map.
The rules are crystal clear about what has to be used for docking rights, Lyth. Read them.
Quote:For the purpose of ZoI rules, systems are classified in the categories below.
Bold systems are considered house space for ID docking rules; italic systems in addition to the bold systems are considered house space for quasi-lawful piracy ID rules:
I underlined the relevant part.
I know many in here would love to cut the zoner ID down as much as you can, but there are limits. The rules could be some of these limits.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - Lythrilux - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 05:11 PM)Jack_Henderson Wrote:I guess I didn't read the rules myself, my bad ^^Quote:To avoid confusion, it'd be better to go with my list of system as they perfectly match up with the Discovery System Map.
The rules are crystal clear about what has to be used for docking rights, Lyth. Read them.
Quote:For the purpose of ZoI rules, systems are classified in the categories below.
Bold systems are considered house space for ID docking rules; italic systems in addition to the bold systems are considered house space for quasi-lawful piracy ID rules:
I underlined the relevant part.
I know many in here would love to cut the zoner ID down as much as you can, but there are limits. The rules could be some of these limits.
However, I do still think that it would be better to use systems in line with the system map.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - St.Denis - 05-30-2014
So yet again another thread has come down to the For and Against with no possible chance of compromise.
Not everybody's interpretation of Lore is going to be the same. Some people may want to visit, with their Capital Zoner Ships, Freeports that are surrounded by House Space. Others don't see the need to. It doesn't make it right or wrong from either side. This where House Laws come in to play and the RP opportunities come in.
InRP you can nearly justify most things. Everybody's style of RP is and should be different. This is what makes this Game complex and enjoyable.
You will never get rid of the 'lolwuts' but it would be nice for people to stop trying to restrict other's enjoyment of the Game because of these. Most, if not all, of the people who play this Games seriously, within the Rules and ID restrictions don't require to be restricted because of the minority.
This isn't just aimed at the Zoners Capitals but I have seen quite a few Threads, recently, trying to restrict this or that because of a small minority doing things that the majority disagree with.
Learn to agree to disagree on certain aspects of the Game, enjoy it whilst you can and don't keep getting personal to each other. Life is too short for such hatred.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - Sabru - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 05:26 PM)St.Denis Wrote: You will never get rid of the 'lolwuts' but it would be nice for people to stop trying to restrict other's enjoyment of the Game because of these. Most, if not all, of the people who play this Games seriously, within the Rules and ID restrictions don't require to be restricted because of the minority.
This isn't just aimed at the Zoners Capitals but I have seen quite a few Threads, recently, trying to restrict this or that because of a small minority doing things that the majority disagree with.
welcome to the world, where actions have consequences, and the actions of a minority have an effect on the majority.
RE: The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID - SnakThree - 05-30-2014
Funny thing is, when Hogosha IDs were nerfed, there was no such uproar from them. Why? Because they are few and they might have admitted it was too OP.
Zoners on the other hand is majority, who believe they are untouchable inRP and ooRP and wants to keep OP status-quo.