Nice example now again with the Zoner bounty.
It's just another bounty that is aiming at trade ships ("where it hurts most"), also sirius wide, and high-value. And it is collected far far out of ZoI (or even known space?) of the faction that put up the bounty.
Should DHC have an interest on keeping these Hessian-helpers under check where it matters to their business? (let's say Rheinland ZoI+1 system) => definitely!
Should a Zoner that is travelling in Beta - on the other side of the universe- be shot at for a DHC bounty? => definitely not, in my view. DHC would neither know that these zoners operate there, nor care, nor be inclined to spend money on something like that.
ZoI defines where you faction has an interest in.
There you defend your interests by the means you have.
Outside of it, you do not have that interest (as reflected e.g. in the inability to pick fights)
Circumventing this "you cannot do it there" rule statement by a bounty and pushing it to extremes by doing it siriuswide feels totally wrong to me.
And whenever I read "to hurt where it hurts" in combination with bounties that are mainly focussing on non-combat ships, I cannot stop asking myself: "you mean 'hurt the player', don't you?". I'll not even comment the underlying motivation of such a move.
Leaving names, trials by thread, and all manner of other stuff at the door
Bounties should only apply within the ZOI controlled by the bounty-er.
From your argument about driving players away, well several times it has been explained to me that the bounty system is in place to drive certain tagged ships away (offline) from playing. So by your own argument the system is exceptionally effective at its given task, and therefor shouldn't be replaced or changed.
What your asking for is GC to accept a mentally change that, given from the current situations, is impossible to attain.
There is no point and no logic in bountying people only in regions where you might as well do it yourself. That the ship itself is not always within your territory doesn't make its actions any less impactful. The whole point of using mercenaries as means to combat is to make them do things you can not. Who says that the interests of a certain faction are to exist only in its territory? I can see what you are getting at from a gameplay perspective, but from a roleplay perspective it would be straight illogical for factions to limit bountying only to their ZOI, unless your character really is into not thinking at all.
Regarding the intel, Daumann wouldn't know from their own experience that Zoners operate in Beta. That's why you have mercenaries that actively look for the targets and figure it out by themselves, then reporting that to their contractor.
Also Jack, there is no need to drift this discussion towards an imaginary "Hurting the players instead of characters" mindset behind bounties.
It is as simple as actions and appropriate consequences. If a player can't deal with the consequences of his/her roleplay, then there should be multiple attempts to reduce the consequences in roleplay, that being the key word here. In the example, OSI already tried, though that did not work yet. If all fails, get yourself escorts if you're targeted in a non-combat ship. Those can scout for mercenaries, delay them or even kill them (though the latter usually takes far too long).
(02-05-2015, 01:06 AM)Jack_Henderson Wrote: [ -> ]Nice example now again with the Zoner bounty.
It's just another bounty that is aiming at trade ships ("where it hurts most"), also sirius wide, and high-value. And it is collected far far out of ZoI (or even known space?) of the faction that put up the bounty.
For a corporation, it actually makes sense since they're hitting where they can't usually hit the faction. Targeting specifically their escorts or security divisions really doesn't do much for the corporation(s) in question here, as it's the transports that are the blood system of the opposing faction. If there is an issue, just hire freelancers, bounty hunters or even members of your own faction to escort you
Quote:Should DHC have an interest on keeping these Hessian-helpers under check where it matters to their business? (let's say Rheinland ZoI+1 system) => definitely!
In DHCs case, the Red Hessians oppose everything that Daumann does. They are their largest and most dangerous opposition, they don't want them expanding into new territories in the slightest, as the possibility of gaining new assets threatens Daumann. Again, there really isn't anything wrong with Sirius wide bounties.
Quote:Should a Zoner that is travelling in Beta - on the other side of the universe- be shot at for a DHC bounty? => definitely not, in my view. DHC would neither know that these zoners operate there, nor care, nor be inclined to spend money on something like that.
In a similar sense, DHC isn't interested in bountying them because they are in Beta, but because they bear the colours of Red Hessian supporters. It's similar to Daumann opposing any form of expansion from the Hessians: the Hessians have expanded their influence to a group of Zoners and DHC wants to prevent that from continuing. If OSI are upset about that, it's really not DHC's problem.
Quote:ZoI defines where you faction has an interest in.
There you defend your interests by the means you have.
Outside of it, you do not have that interest (as reflected e.g. in the inability to pick fights)
Circumventing this "you cannot do it there" rule statement by a bounty and pushing it to extremes by doing it siriuswide feels totally wrong to me.
It's not circumventing anything really, since non-generic IDs can only pursue bounties within their ZoI. It doesn't allow the player with the ID to go out their influence to attack a bountied ship. Yes, it allows them to hit their opposition where they usually can't. No, its not circumventing any rules.
On that point, isn't that the point of bounties? To hit them where you can't? To stop them from growing through the use of blood thirsty mercenaries? It encourages other people to affiliate themselves with your faction by doing the dirty work. It's fantastic, really.
Quote:And whenever I read "to hurt where it hurts" in combination with bounties that are mainly focussing on non-combat ships, I cannot stop asking myself: "you mean 'hurt the player', don't you?". I'll not even comment the underlying motivation of such a move.
If the player is hurt from being incapable to fend off pirates, hire an escort or ask for a faction member to guard them then it's their fault. Space, as it is always known for, is dangerous. Corporate warfare is able to take up a new style with bounties and limiting that to only ZoI only makes certain factions untouchable in certain regions, make space a not so dangerous place.
And if it counts for anything, I really love the
3 Sirius wide bounties you have on the IMG Bounty Board. It's a nice, hypocritical touch.
(02-05-2015, 06:52 AM)LordVipex Wrote: [ -> ]I can see what you are getting at from a gameplay perspective
After contemplating about gameplay possibilities coming from bounties I must retract this, actually.
To combat ships of the bountied faction, mercenaries provide excellent targets to combat. Non-combat ships have the chance to create interaction by hiring mercenaries on their own or even using escorts from their own ranks.
The bounty is merely a way to play a consequence coming from certain actions. If a bounty or other consequences really worry players that much they should try to fix the root of the cause, as opposed to trying to nerf the means by which the consequences are carried out. Tired of getting hit by faction X? Negotiate about protection money or become neutral, perhaps even friendly with that faction. Gameplay wise bounties, just as most other consequences, create new interaction and are a good way for corporations with limited ZOI to hit back.
It's all fun and games to state "bounties force non-combat ships to arrange for escorts", but why don't we allow every other ID to just openly engage transports then? Why is there a "must make a demand" rule for everyone who isn't a bounty hunter? I'm sure that's because we don't like the idea of people hunting down targets that stand no chance to defend themselves. I'm a big fan of the concept of escorts, but not everyone has active friends willing to fly by their side in a combat ship and likely encounter absolutely nothing for an hour or two.
I think that, as a Reaver, I never pursued trade ships as targets. It's no fun for either party.
As for the actual topic, I do have to agree with Vipex. Limiting bounties to ZoI actually makes them rather pointless. Admittedly, it does seem like there are a few groups out there who primarily use (very large) bounties to actively spite other players. I wouldn't say that's a ZoI issue, it's a behavioral issue.
(02-05-2015, 02:23 PM)Haste Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't say that's a ZoI issue, it's a behavioral issue.
(02-05-2015, 02:13 PM)LordVipex Wrote: [ -> ]create new interaction and are a good way for corporations with limited ZOI to hit back.
The whole point of this thread is that bounties aren't providing interactions, its providing blues and credits. When was the last time you got hunted by a silent bounty hunter? It happens quite often to me as I generally only fly trade factions because I suck at PvP. But hey lets fly the "interactions banner" because like, that totally happens ingame.
Come on guys, it's not hard to avoid being on the other end of the bounty. As Wu graciously pointed out, JM has had to cope with Jack's sirius wide bounty on us that even hits us harder if we're just simply mining in Texas.
Whether you like it or not, PvP is an interaction. Even one-sided PvP like bounty hunting transports.
I don't shoot transports myself (except for rude ones who don't play ball when I pirate them), mind you, but it most certainly constitutes an interaction.
The best way to prevent overbounty-ing is to actually set a maximum limit on the amount of credits of the blanket bounties.
Another solution is to restrict the aforementioned amount only when the targeted faction is outside of the ZoI of the faction who owns the Bounty Board.