Welcome everyone. Wall of text incoming. So if you feel like just checking what's going on but bored to read - leave the thread - there are more easier readable threads out there for you to post in.
First I want to explain the title because you might be curious about it. I named it Discovery 2.0 because we are going to discuss the possible ways of the future Discovery mod development. Why I'm rising the issue of developing for not the next patch, that being 4.88, but entirely new mod version w\o connections to the previous versions, instead? I, personally, do not believe into the way the mod went straight after the 4.85 mod version, I do not believe that further usage of the developing model, concept and storyline progress will be successful in any way around so I want to discuss the total restart of Discovery mod as a whole in order to fix the issues and problems the current mod was carry on with from version to version, to rework the gameplay in favor of more comfortable and RP-friendly environment, to reduce amount of systems (ye, finally), to restart the economy model with it's total rework, etc. Most of those things can be successfully done only though the total mod concept reset. Also we have nothing to loose anyway so why not? After all the Discovery 2.0 can be launched as a test in parallel with the main server to prove it's usefulness (if it's even necessary).
Since this is cleared let's get down to the business.
As most of us aware the discovery began as a ship pack. Further development was mostly extending the vanilla freelancer lore and gameplay, but for a tiny bits here and there. This is, in my opinion, was what made the server to be very attractive and interesting. The changes were not big and ANY player that had a clue about SP campaign was able to extend his SP experience through the Discovery environment. The changes were not big so it was easy to get down to any faction's RP - the official factions are usually were representing the canon faction's RP, at least most of them. As I said it was easy for those who played SP once and those who played on some other server to effectively get down to the business.
The current storyline is all messed up, IMHO. First of all it is hard for a player to track down all the changes in all the factions that are going on from mod version to mod version (Honestly it's in some way a players fought - many were pushing devs\admins to draw the changes for their factions faster. Faster! FASTER! And more changes please! Of cause sometimes those were retarded demands the administration team must'v ignored in the first place but well, we got what we asked for - now we can't even understand what the hell is going on, lol). Many of those changes do not even have a logical background behind them. As result we have a fair bunch of players here who just don't see the ends of those changes to even start to track down the stuff off them - so they build own concepts that, sometimes, are going straight against the canon faction's lore. What must be done in the situation when some group is going against the RP rule set? Usually, admins are flogging some arse and point them out all the wrongs they did. Why that doesn't happen on our server? I guess it's because despite the fact that we have an army of inactive admins the server do not have any written game concepts (or they are not used). The canon lore is not written, the changes are not written either (all in one place and in understandable form). I'm not saying about the fragments that can be found lying here and there like banana chunks. I'm talking about the systematized rule set of canon rules for a factions (all in one place and in understandable form). No rules = chaos = people get bored when anyone do whatever they please. The problem of factions or other entities dropping their in-RP weaknesses that are canon is rising here and there but this is not regulated in any way around, moreover it is totally agreed by the admins that factions can have non-canon RP which is total bullcrap if you ask me and proves, once again, that there is no written game concept for the server. I actually can go further into conspiracy and say that, in fact, administrating and developing teams are consisted of people who are actually just some players protecting own interests through this "work". Yes, I know being admin\dev is a free-will duty, but without regulations people just do what is first coming in mind. What is coming in mind first usually? The thing you're in touch with are first - your faction's progress, rp, ships, house you're playing in, gameplay elements you're using. I'm not going into digging deep into the whole this issue, but instead, I'll just say that this must stop for the good. I'd like also to point out the I'm not saying the developing work or admin work is not valued by myself - it's very valuable work. I'm saying that it seems the it's not systematized in any way so it does look like everyone just do the part he have idea about and then someone glue the pieces together into the Frankenstein monster.
So let's list the things that are coming in my mind concerning the whole Discovery 2.0 idea.
1. First of all the introduction of all the planned changes will, for sure, require the total server wipe. Is it a problem? No. Starting over in the new environment is healthy and entertaining. That's what I believe in.
2. The game's lore is to be reworked. I'm not sure about Gallia at all. I'd simply drop the Gallia away. It's better to concentrate on the SP's storyline extension and to put the Nomads as the main antagonist. Nomad gear\RP is already very well developed thanks to the people like Treewyrm so it must be just reworked to fit into the new concept. Basically it will be easier to just reverse down all the changes in factions back to vanilla first - that's the first step. On that stage it will be mandatory to write down all the vanilla RP rule sets to have the further track on the changes to the vanilla RP in further development. Then, basing on vanilla rule set, the minor changes must be done to factions to explain their little progress since the SP and thus to write down the initial lore set for Discovery 2.0. This lore set will be CANON to the whole server. Canon can not be changed in any way by factions on their own initiative. It also must not pass the huge and critical changes with the new game versions. It is just not necessary, really. The factions must operate inside the canon lore w\o leaving it's borders all the time.
3. Rules. Rules for discovery were passing various changes since the first revision and currently rules are simply not meeting with the demand. Rules are made to support the healthy well-being on the server - not to limit the random aspects. The PVP rules of the old 4.85 must return with their big limitations. It must be discussed separately since it's the whole lot of a talk.
4. Gameplay. From what I see for the past years I can say the following - gameplay here is a sweet piece of puzzle that is always forgotten under the table. What was the devs though about when the jump drives, cloaks and bases were introduced? Those things just destroyed the already weak gameplay w\o bringing anything good. I guess someone's idea was that with introduction of some new funny features the online will fly skyhigh and people will rush to play with new shiny things + it will provide the advantage for the group RP (I guess the idea was that group RP = more people on the server which is totally wrong from how it looks). Maybe it's even was going that way for a week or two. However the Discovery was never about the in game items (I mean okay, stuff was very important for the ship pack, yea, but the core for it was RP). Ships and guns are always were the tools for RP. You was building ship around the idea of some RP and to reflect that RP. Everyone and their mother having cloak and battleship is bad idea for RP and gameplay. It was total fail and I'm sorry for the time wasted. Those things must stay only as SRPed items if staying at all. Bases including of cause.
5. Trading. Trading must be redone. This include all the means of cash gathering. Trading, mining, smuggling. The great three cornerstones IMHO. Capship mission grind must be gone since it's just wrong. Hunting NPCs in MP server and then running from the interactions with players is just wrong. There is open SP for that. I think those three must be the main sources of money, but mostly the smuggling. Why smuggling? Because it provides more possible RP then trading and mining. Trading must be on par with smuggling though, but a little less profitable if done alone. Mining must be the last profitable because it must be as good as trading or smuggling only if done in group of many players. So Smuggling - solo based unlawful and dangerous way to make cash. Trading is lawful and more friendly way to make cash - also lawfuls must have bigger ships available for them to benefit from group trading - the mechanism will be explain further down. The mining must be group based money source. So all-in-all all groups of players will have own ways to rise the coin - the solo players and group players. Actually the one of the current problems on my list is that solo players are suffering a lot from the development line that I call "GROUP GAMEPLAY - BEST GAMEPLAY YARR". This came to the point that it's simply not interesting to log alone now so if you're alone it's better to attend some other businesses instead of logging and thus activity is dropping.
Also about the mechanism. Trading must be done on freighters. I guess their agility and defense capability must be nerfed (As well as all vessel's agility from those able to use turret steer and zoom) but cargo holds extended to the max of 900 units. Big transports must stay but their usage must be limited as of any capital class ship. Removing the mooring points from most bases must fix this. So capital ships, huge transports and other stuff like that will not be able to dock into almost all dock-able objects around. Docking battleships with battleships? Hell no, thanks. Only shipyards and planets. Thus the group gameplay for traders will be in form of loading\unloading big transport with freighters to carry the huge load of cargo in one run. Also the problem of overwhelming capital ship overuse will be addressed. The capital ships will become an easy prey for bombers if operating far from the bases that can fit it in.
6. In the end - systems. Oh that's the stick in the eyes of many players. We have so many systems that it's not even funny. The old vanilla systems are all messed up as hell and broken. This can be put to the end by wiping the whole playerbase and then it will require to develop the system modification concept. Concept is simple actually - the amount of systems that needs to be added must be limited as much as possible. Of cause to introduce the nomads it will be mandatory to add all the required stuff for them from systems to ships. But we have a lot of trash systems no one really need or use - those can be removed entirely. The vanilla systems must be changed with caution - the main vector is to extend the system's gameplay - not to ruin it. All in all - the gameplay of the whole game must be running around the vanilla systems w\o spamming the activity centers around the place. We have a capital systems and war zones for that. So the star objects must remain at their respectful places no matter what. It's vanilla. The minable fields, additional bases (with huge precaution into the decision of adding one), changes to the overall system's look (adding wrecks here and there, changing the base's appearance), base ownerships, patrols are the subjects to change to reflect various in-RP scenarios that changes the canon lore (a bit!). Thus the systems will be evolving - not dramatically changing while rolling downhill.
So to sum up - the main points that must be taken in mind, in my opinion, while the Discovery 2.0 development are - gameplay and vanilla lore-friendly environment. Gamplay must be the cornerstone to all the changes. How will that change play out on the server? This is the question. I have no idea what the guy who made those insane stationed capital ships with gatling firing razors and mortars is thought about but it was just wrong. What was the idea behind adding high level NPCs everywhere? No idea. What was the idea behind letting the players to build the bases anywhere they see fit? No idea again. All the parts of the game are affecting gameplay - ships, base locations, canon lore, actual server rules. Any change have an impact on gameplay's well being. So it must be brainstormed hard, very hard. And to make the right decision it is very welcoming to have a clear plan on how you want the gameplay to look like, how you want all the factions separately to look like, how you want the houses to look like, how you want the situation in the whole sector to look like and many other questions like that. Guidelines for everything.
That's how I see Discovery 2.0. And how do you see it yourself, Anon?
//edit: errors and mistypes fixed a bit
Some aggregated info from posts below:
(10-28-2013, 07:23 PM)Curios Wrote:
(10-28-2013, 07:08 PM)massdriver Wrote: + for brave idea, but who's going to do a mod from scratch?
Actually not from scratch. A lot of content is already pretty much done (in the current mod that is). Most of ships and their params are done, weapons are okay, so only freighters and transports will pass the most changes. I think they must be really weak. It's the cornerstone of being a trader - you must be sneaky guy that use precaution, money and tongue to save own butt - not firepower and armor. Also the trading concept rework demands freighter rebalance. Currently they are very fast and sometimes more deadly then fighter. Lol actually. The most changes are -> systems, infocards, and the biggest one is trading balance. So for the developing the current contetent can be easily reused. It's not about total remake, it's about remaking the concept.
(10-28-2013, 07:13 PM)Wraga Wrote: I like this wall, it contains a lot of good ideas, but personally I dont think that there will be anybody who will say no for the current mod and start it from the beginning.
Its better to implement these ideas into the current version somehow.
Well, I believe it will pay out. Anyway some of those ideas are not even possible to implement without the wipe. But who knows.
(10-28-2013, 08:01 PM)Curios Wrote:
(10-28-2013, 07:38 PM)belarusich Wrote: How mining will become profitable in groups?
The idea is to balance the profit rates depending on ships that can be used for the task - being that smuggling, mining or trading.
It's harder to smuggle the load of cardamine on board of the huge transport, also the routes must go through the jump holes making the transport usage to be less effective - transports (those that are bigger then freighters yn) must be stucking in asteroid fields making them into the easy prey for pirates, navy or police, to be very slow. So it must be easier to use freighters so solo freighter will pass all the odds easier and will make cash.
Trading must be rewarding to use transports with freighters in combo to make more cash with just a bunch of freighters. For example you have that setup:
player 1: transport - 2000 cargo space
player 2: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 3: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 4: freighter - 800 cargo space
In total you will have 4400 cargo space.
So if you have another setup with just freighters:
player 1: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 2: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 3: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 4: freighter - 800 cargo space
You have only 3200 cargo space. So your party can make more cash with transport. But you'll also need freighters to unload it. 1 freighter unloading 3 transports is just a huge waste of time on the whole procedure, also transports can't dock at small base so they will be vulnerable for pirates on that process.
Mining - another story. There must be ships to mine ore and ships to haul ore. So you can't make cash alone anyway - you need to sell mined ore to someone or to fill the transports up. However it must be less profitable then trading\smuggling if done by less then 3-4 players.
P.S. Forgot to say that smuggling routes must go to each house. First route to some lawful base (most profitable -> more dangerous), second to some unlawful base (junkers\hogosha\gc\etc - depends on commodity) (less profitable, less dangerous).
Trading must go between the bases w\o docking ports for capital ships, or between planet\shipyard and base w\o port for capital ship. This will encourage the usage of freighters or combos with transports.
(10-28-2013, 08:23 PM)Curios Wrote: On capital ships.
I think capships being open use w\o any responsibilities was a bad experience. So I think it will be vise to limit the usage of those. So here is my idea:
House Navies will have up to battle cruiser in open use. Carriers, Dread and Battleships must be SRP only.
Major pirate factions like Hessians, Sairs and OCs must have up to Cruisers, bigger is SRP.
Others must be up to GB with ability to SRP cruiser.
Intelligence Factions like KPT, LSF, BIA, MND must have up to GB in open, cruiser - SRP.
Trading factions - up to GB, can't srp capital ships by normal means.
Zoners - up to GB, the rest is SRP. Wanna RP mobile FP? Np - make SRP.
Some paramilitary like IMG, CR, Council - up to cruiser in open. Maybe even up to GB for IMG.
etc.
+
SRP will prove the player knows how to RP and he's actually RPing and thus contributing to the mod and community.
SRP is putting big caps under control. It's SRP and it can be revoked - so you're under the admin finger, man. Screw up and your cap is gone.
I like this wall, it contains a lot of good ideas, but personally I dont think that there will be anybody who will say no for the current mod and start it from the beginning.
Its better to implement these ideas into the current version somehow.
(10-28-2013, 06:52 PM)Raphael Von Evil Wrote: Nice idea. *thumb up*
(10-28-2013, 07:11 PM)Veygaar Wrote: You
Thanks for replies. Stay tuned
(10-28-2013, 07:08 PM)massdriver Wrote: + for brave idea, but who's going to do a mod from scratch?
Actually not from scratch. A lot of content is already pretty much done (in the current mod that is). Most of ships and their params are done, weapons are okay, so only freighters and transports will pass the most changes. I think they must be really weak. It's the cornerstone of being a trader - you must be sneaky guy that use precaution, money and tongue to save own butt - not firepower and armor. Also the trading concept rework demands freighter rebalance. Currently they are very fast and sometimes more deadly then fighter. Lol actually. The most changes are -> systems, infocards, and the biggest one is trading balance. So for the developing the current contetent can be easily reused. It's not about total remake, it's about remaking the concept.
(10-28-2013, 07:13 PM)Wraga Wrote: I like this wall, it contains a lot of good ideas, but personally I dont think that there will be anybody who will say no for the current mod and start it from the beginning.
Its better to implement these ideas into the current version somehow.
Well, I believe it will pay out. Anyway some of those ideas are not even possible to implement without the wipe. But who knows.
The idea is to balance the profit rates depending on ships that can be used for the task - being that smuggling, mining or trading.
It's harder to smuggle the load of cardamine on board of the huge transport, also the routes must go through the jump holes making the transport usage to be less effective - transports (those that are bigger then freighters yn) must be stucking in asteroid fields making them into the easy prey for pirates, navy or police, to be very slow. So it must be easier to use freighters so solo freighter will pass all the odds easier and will make cash.
Trading must be rewarding to use transports with freighters in combo to make more cash with just a bunch of freighters. For example you have that setup:
player 1: transport - 2000 cargo space
player 2: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 3: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 4: freighter - 800 cargo space
In total you will have 4400 cargo space.
So if you have another setup with just freighters:
player 1: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 2: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 3: freighter - 800 cargo space
player 4: freighter - 800 cargo space
You have only 3200 cargo space. So your party can make more cash with transport. But you'll also need freighters to unload it. 1 freighter unloading 3 transports is just a huge waste of time on the whole procedure, also transports can't dock at small base so they will be vulnerable for pirates on that process.
Mining - another story. There must be ships to mine ore and ships to haul ore. So you can't make cash alone anyway - you need to sell mined ore to someone or to fill the transports up. However it must be less profitable then trading\smuggling if done by less then 3-4 players.
P.S. Forgot to say that smuggling routes must go to each house. First route to some lawful base (most profitable -> more dangerous), second to some unlawful base (junkers\hogosha\gc\etc - depends on commodity) (less profitable, less dangerous).
Trading must go between the bases w\o docking ports for capital ships, or between planet\shipyard and base w\o port for capital ship. This will encourage the usage of freighters or combos with transports.