(02-15-2022, 05:40 AM)onca Wrote: Anyhow, lacking anything better to do during lunch, I skimmed thru that post and a couple of things stuck out:
1. The problem is not so much people ganking on each other, but the blatant OORP involved. Eg, a couple of pirates in low-level ships appear in a house system, looking to cause mischief. They are challenged by a couple of local police. A good fight ensues. Then *bam* a half-dozen military types, including caps, suddenly appear and blow the pirates to hell. Not only do they charge in without so much as a by-your-leave, but it also smacks of meta-gaming ("ooh look, i'll log out of my trader and go join the feeding frenzy!")
2. Ganking can ruin fun on both sides. Eg, said police characters are looking forward to an epic battle with a couple of evenly matched pirates. But then the caps show up, and the original police guys just cruise away shaking their heads as the caps blow everything to hell.
3. There is a time and place for ganking... when it's bloody Roleplayed properly.
These points are as valid now as they were 13 years ago.
Are you sure you read the linked post and not something else?
Because there is no mention of OORP, meta-gaming, or there being a place for ganking. Other people mention those later in the thread, but such nuance isn't coming from the OP. There is only a lot of emotional language, which seems to try to signal that the amount of annoyance and disgust with (alleged) "gankers" the OP expresses must be proportional to his own virtue. And the assertion that the only possible explanation for using massive force is that one wants to maliciously prevent someone else's fun.
It turns out later in the thread that the "fun" that was prevented in his most important example was an ace-on-amateur killing spree which probably wasn't much fun for the people getting killed by the "gank victim" either.
(02-15-2022, 05:40 AM)onca Wrote: Now @Karlotta you took the liberty of highlighting the statement: "Your fun is not as important as someone else's fun". I submit that statement shows a level of humility and empathy which, if more people applied it in their gaming here and their lives in general, would make Disco and the world at large a better place.
Conversely, ridiculing the above statement denotes a complete disrespect for other people, the kind self-centeredness that says "I don't give a crap about anyone's gameplay experience but my own."
Oh dear.
Looks like I'll have to explain really, really slowly, step by step, exactly why the statement is in fact the opposite of humble and empathetic, the attitude behind it is a large part of the reason why disco is so hypocritical and toxic, and why it's difficult to not automatically ridicule it by merely mentioning it, because it's kind of beyond parody.
Let me begin by carefully pointing out that there is a difference between telling someone
"I consider my fun not as important as someone else's fun"
and telling them
"Your fun is not as important as someone else's fun"
in order to get THEM to live by that mantra.
If you think about it further than "Oh geeze telling people to be selfless sounds so noble it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, I second what the powerful and wise admin says!", you might realize that the two statements are pretty much the opposite of each other, in a funny way if the consequences weren't so sad for disco.
The first statement I can relate to and also feel in certain situations. For example when I'm organizing PvE space adventures for noobs, giving them tasks that work towards a common goal (like looting an artifact or mapping jump coordinates), to give them a sense of achievement and help them learn the game in a group. Or when I write down rules, lore, or game mechanics in a more accessible and clear manner, taking a lot of time and effort so noobs will need less time and effort when trying to make sense of disco later. Or when I'm taking time to put lights on quick dock points so that new people will know how to dock more easily. And yeah, I can also relate to the first statement while I invest my own time and effort trying to help disco staff, or other people, solve their re-occurring problems, knowing that I will probably just get a "who do you think you are to think you can help ME solve problems that I can't" and memes in return.
There are, however, also some situations where I can't agree to apply the first statement to myself. For example when someone has been having fun at the expense of others and myself, without giving anyone outside of their "in group" the chance to have any fun at all. In my experience, this kind of tribal behavior mostly comes not from "noobs and lolwhuts" (who even if they wanted to, cant do it for lack of skill, organization, and friends), but from disco's well established "pvp aces", who only fly in all-ace groups of 3-4, blowing up everyone who cant gather 3-4 pilots of comparable skill in time, while the aces yell "unfair!" at those who try to survive through numbers or size, because those aces feel that they are entitled to win every single fight against the less skilled players they target. Those aces already have enough fun without me or anyone else intentionally sacrificing ours for it. Note that I have the option of just not intentionally sacrificing my own fun, without yelling at them telling them they need to prioritize my fun over theirs. I will, however, point out their hypocrisy if they tell other people they have to do that, which they so often do in "totally irp ways".
Now about the second statement. Asking or expecting OTHER people to be selfless is not at all a nice thing to do to them, nor is it humble or a sign of empathy. Especially when the people you want them to be selfless towards are you and your friends. And no, the OP did not "mis-speak". He meant exactly what he said and the context is very clear throughout the thread. More specifically, he was asking other people to place the fun of his friend Ench/Blighter, and the likes of him/her, above their own. What triggered the rant was the fact that someone put an end Ench's murder spree (at least 6 snubs killed) by using a cap, and Ench promptly decided to raegquit because dying after killing 6 other players who got to kill nobody was more than anyone can be expected to stomach. Although the OP later tried to deny it when the circumstances of the alleged "gank" were revealed, his continuing attitude towards the alleged "gankers" showed that neither the OP nor Ench cared even a tiny bit about the fun of the players who died to them before the cap arrived. I may add that being in factions like Phantoms, Keepers, and Reavers, who were officially-endorsed ganking-factions created for that purpose with better rights and gear than others, filled with admins and their friends, also kind of speaks volumes for what you consider "fair".
Let me also point out that here you are, declaring me to be a bad and immature person because I don't agree with people who tell OTHER people THEY should be selfless, and who yell bloody murder at them when they aren't selfless. Yet right afterwards it looks very much like you don't care at all about the fun of those horrible people who came after 4.79 (including me, obviously). You claim they are the root of all evil, that many restriction had to be introduced because of them. That sounds and awful lot like something we see all over disco: people hate it when others come and have fun on "their" turf, and hate even more that they don't "obey their betters" who decide for them in what ways they are allowed to have fun. It's actually very unlikely that suddenly the new people who arrived systematically sucked more than those who arrived before. It's more likely you just felt that way because they were outsiders to your already established "tribe", and you thought that you and your tribe should be the ones who decides how the game is to be played, not they.
So yeah, I don't agree at all with telling players (vets or noobs, aces or amateurs) they should consider their own fun less important than other people's fun. Not only because it's insanely hypocritical to ask that of someone else instead of simply applying it to yourself when appropriate (asking it of someone else actually suggests you dont even REALLY apply it to yourself either), but also because it's totally unrealistic, and setting yourself up for disappointment, only making you and them even more mad at each other. The only people I might say that to (prioritize other people's fun not your own) is those who sign up to be staff, but not concerning their gameplay, only concerning their staff duties.
Sadly the mentality in that quote (the one that expects the OTHERS to put their own self interest in second place) has already been deeply woven in the fabric of disco. We see it in pirates and terrorists who do absolutely nothing to make the encounter fun or fair for other side, but yet they feel they have the right to yell and ostracize people for avoiding them, and for not fighting them on the terms they wish for. Do I want them to make the encounter fun for the other side? If they want to, sure. But I'm NOT going to yell at them for not doing it. Especially not when I do nothing for them either, but not only then.
You want some better advice?
Don't expect other people to behave in ways you don't behave, and wouldn't behave, either.
Accept that most players are naturally inclined to look for fun for themselves, and are not here with the intention to provide fun for someone else at their own expense.
Be tolerant of different play styles.
If you expect other people to obey rules, know the lore, and role play, help them achieve that by making rules, lore, and role play actually easy to access and fun for them. Or don't, if you don't feel like it, but then don't complain if they haven't learned it as fast as they could have.
(02-15-2022, 05:40 AM)onca Wrote: Oh, it also leads to the rulebook bloat we enjoy today. I remember back in 4.79 (yeah here we go) when you could print the rules on a postage stamp, and there were virtually no in-game restrictions on what factions could fly what ships mounting what weapons, in whatever bloody systems they chose. As long as it was properly RP'd. We didn't need a lot of rules, because we played by a set of ethics which placed everyone's fun experience as paramount.
Buuuut then along came the powergamers and lolwuts, who only cared about their own personal fun and egos, rudely pushing at the envelope of "what's permitted" (not to mention good taste); and so the admins, such as you admonished, were obliged to reign them in. (TBF, many PvP servers shutdown around that time, leading to a lot "I don't care about RP I just wanna kill" players streaming to Disco. And some of those players actually smartened up.)
And so today, it's the reason we must navigate the byzantine array of game-enforced restrictions on ships, weapons, weapon types, cargo, bases, and associations a char can avail themselves of. It's also the reason the rules are imprinted with things like "no hate speech, no racism, no sexist remarks, be respectful". Stuff which should be obvious to anyone with half a brain; which, sadly, is all too often not the case.
Sorry to ruin your perfect story on who is to blame for disco's problems, but the rules were even more bloated when I got here than they are now. It's still really bad now tho, yeah.
The only people to blame for the state of the rules are those who made them that way. Trying to blame that on "those horrible people who arrived after me and who don't share my personal view on what is common sense" is just... urgh.
It's the same old pattern of not taking responsibility and not taking the necessary steps to become more welcoming and helpful to new people that staff has held forever.
Instead of using power and influence to take responsibility and make things better, it's used to shift the blame on those with the least power and influence. Kind of like they do with the prioritization of "other people's fun".