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Full Version: SNAC hit causing server crash.. Did this ever happen with you? o.O
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It was never a good, efficient anti-cap weapon, people now just use novas or scorchers or anything else. When it was made useless against snubs it didn't receive a proper anti-cap buff. The plugin keeps breaking all the time and is clearly not the solution - we already had issues from some SNACs dealing 0 damage to caps, to some dealing 300k damage to caps, to ignoring armor upgrades (the funniest one) and now it's crashing the server. It's obvious it isn't working yet we'll likely wait for months to see a proper fix instead of just reverting what was a perfectly fine weapon.

There are ways to nerf it without any plugin, for instance an effortless solution was making it take 35k core per shot and increasing damage to 180k. That way it's stronger against caps (more dps, less SNACs shot overall), but weaker against snubs because it's an instakill either way while requiring noticeably more powercore to shoot. It's also more punishing if you miss, and rewards carefully timed shots vs caps. Not saying it needs a nerf at all, people just like complaining way more than adapting and getting better.
Yeah. Revert the nerf.
(01-16-2019, 01:14 AM)Antonio Wrote: [ -> ]It was never a good, efficient anti-cap weapon, people now just use novas or scorchers or anything else. When it was made useless against snubs it didn't receive a proper anti-cap buff. The plugin keeps breaking all the time and is clearly not the solution - we already had issues from some SNACs dealing 0 damage to caps, to some dealing 300k damage to caps, to ignoring armor upgrades (the funniest one) and now it's crashing the server. It's obvious it isn't working yet we'll likely wait for months to see a proper fix instead of just reverting what was a perfectly fine weapon.

There are ways to nerf it without any plugin, for instance an effortless solution was making it take 35k core per shot and increasing damage to 180k. That way it's stronger against caps (more dps, less SNACs shot overall), but weaker against snubs because it's an instakill either way while requiring noticeably more powercore to shoot. It's also more punishing if you miss, and rewards carefully timed shots vs caps. Not saying it needs a nerf at all, people just like complaining way more than adapting and getting better.

The advantage of a SNAC is that you don't pay for ammunition upkeep, and you can't run out of ammo. It might not be efficient in terms of damage landed per successful hit, but it was always more forgiving for long fleet battles or prolonged stints of piracy. You could miss, and your punishment was a few seconds' wait, rather than 5k credits tossed into space and one less chance to nail your target. 5000 credits isn't very much money, but if you're one of the maniacs that carries a full load (I personally try to only carry about 25), a premature death is quite a bit of ammo thrown down the tubes. It's not very much cash in the grand scheme of things, considering how much you can earn just running a load of cardamine, but it's nonetheless an annoyance. Not to mention you've just fed every other bomber in the furball (allied or otherwise) with all the ordnance you just dropped.

Besides, the plugin being buggy means that the implementation is flawed, not the idea. I think the current intention, which is to prevent instantly nuking a fighter with its pants down, but still provide a lower maintenance (if lower DPS as well) alternative to the nova torpedo, is perfectly sound, and despite the bugs you've mentioned (which they have apparently patched, minus this most recent one), isn't worth abandoning yet. It's probably a quick fix -- adding some rule that dictates its behavior against NPCs rather than players.

I work with software for my IRL job, and sometimes adding a new feature has bugs that only show up a while later. Discovery is a small dev team without a lot of resources and probably not a lot of beta testing manpower, so yeah, the players struggle with some of the fixes that get dropped in at times, but it's part of the iterative development process, but I definitely don't think it's time to scrap it when no better alternative exists (no, I don't consider reversion to the original SNAC a better alternative).
As is with the Carrier concept, the SNAC nerf is half baked and buggy, and many would argue was not required in the first place.

Though it is a shame that SHF will suffer immensely from reverting the nerf.
(01-15-2019, 08:51 PM)Nepotu Wrote: [ -> ]Discovery Episode III: Revenge of the SNAC

LOLOL

(01-15-2019, 10:30 PM)Antonio Wrote: [ -> ]Not surprising considering the motto here often is "if it ain't broke, break it". Ever since it got gutted the weapon is constantly broken in one way or another, shocker.
Who can predict the 5th issue it'll cause?

LAWL !!

(01-16-2019, 01:36 AM)Grumblesaur Wrote: [ -> ]Besides, the plugin being buggy means that the implementation is flawed, not the idea. I think the current intention, which is to prevent instantly nuking a fighter with its pants down, but still provide a lower maintenance (if lower DPS as well) alternative to the nova torpedo, is perfectly sound, and despite the bugs you've mentioned (which they have apparently patched, minus this most recent one), isn't worth abandoning yet. It's probably a quick fix -- adding some rule that dictates its behavior against NPCs rather than players.

Most people would say the nerf is not needed at all... "nuking a fighter with its pants down" isn't very easy in the first place.. It requires tremendous amount of skill and practice.
But if a nerf really needs to be implemented.. Why not go for something simple like Antonio said... Increasing the damage, and energy consumption thus increasing the time between shots and power core management... making the shots much more valuable, and much more punishing if you miss.... Why not go fora simple nerf instead of making a convoluted plugin which is highly unstable, if at all a nerf has to be freakin implemented...

(01-16-2019, 01:50 AM)Markam Wrote: [ -> ]the SNAC nerf is half baked and buggy, and many would argue was not required in the first place.

I couldn't have said it better myself..
(01-16-2019, 03:43 AM)Dark Chocolate Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-16-2019, 01:36 AM)Grumblesaur Wrote: [ -> ]Besides, the plugin being buggy means that the implementation is flawed, not the idea. I think the current intention, which is to prevent instantly nuking a fighter with its pants down, but still provide a lower maintenance (if lower DPS as well) alternative to the nova torpedo, is perfectly sound, and despite the bugs you've mentioned (which they have apparently patched, minus this most recent one), isn't worth abandoning yet. It's probably a quick fix -- adding some rule that dictates its behavior against NPCs rather than players.

Most people would say the nerf is not needed at all... "nuking a fighter with its pants down" isn't very easy in the first place.. It requires tremendous amount of skill and practice.
But if a nerf really needs to be implemented.. Why not go for something simple like Antonio said... Increasing the damage, and energy consumption thus increasing the time between shots and power core management... making the shots much more valuable, and much more punishing if you miss.... Why not go fora simple nerf instead of making a convoluted plugin which is highly unstable, if at all a nerf has to be freakin implemented...

The issue here isn't whether it's easy or difficult, or that it requires practice. If it's available it becomes part of the greater combat metagame because the people who are good at it will use it, and the people who want to get good at it will practice it. Thus it becomes a tool for veterans to seal club new players. It's a deliberate subversion of the intended balance of combat and it gives bombers too general a role.

It takes skill and good reflexes, yes, but you could say the same thing of a Paper Mario glitch. Does that justify its presence in the game? Depends on whether you like playing a broken game, and whether you think it even constitutes a flaw at all. I happen to think it does, since I pretty vividly remember a lot of fights where bombers were the primary snub and you just brought a few VHFs along for some extra cruise disruptors. Now the ship roles are better distributed, and keeping the SNAC doing what it was all along intended for (i.e. blasting holes in capital ships and making traders think twice about trying to run away) is, in addition to most bomber energy weapons being rather lackluster in taking down other snubs, the best thing to keep bombers from being VHF replacements. Just because something is hard doesn't mean it's a good game feature, and most of the people who seem to think it is are people who've already been doing it for years.

It smells like a self-interested motivation to me, but it's important for a person to remember, "hey, this game isn't just for me, it's for other people too". Some of those other people are new players, or people who don't have a lot of practice fighting. Getting your ship instakilled doesn't allow a lot of time to learn combat by doing, lest you waste server slots dueling in Connecticut instead of participating in the roleplay environment.

Since Discovery borrows so much from 20th century naval combat for its gameplay, I think it's fair to assume that it violates the design goals of the mod to let a Dauntless drop bombs on a Zero outside of freak accidents. Because there are limitations to the game engine (foremost the fact that there's no gravity to make bombs really behave like bombs, let alone antimatter blasts) that prevent us from fully realizing this naval analogy, certain compromises have to be made, like letting the SNAC be what amounts to a big, slow gun.

While it might be difficult to technobabble out a good explanation as to why a big pile of antimatter plowing into a snub doesn't explode the pilot's brain into next week on impact, I feel like whatever lame handwave somebody might come up with is perfectly reasonable anyway since 80% of the infocards in the game are nigh on pseudoscience anyway. (This isn't a bad thing, mind you; I rather like the laissez-faire approach to dealing with science, since it permits story writers and roleplayers to take more creative license).

Bugs and software faults are frustrating, but every new innovation has teething troubles, whether it's the software itself (like this server crash issue) or a policy problem (player bases, system re-entry after death, what have you), they always need tweaking at some point. I think we should be patient; no doubt somebody's working on a patch for this as we speak.
How or why to nerf the SNAC aside, the plugin is broken and is causing server crashes. I would obviously recommend a different method of fix is found and the plugin disabled. Antonio's fix will work in the short term, in the long term, perhaps giving SNAC a delay before it fires would be enough to remove its effectiveness in the twitch based snub combat.

Debating if it should have been nerfed in the first place is not constructive, particularly as this is a decision the balance devs have already made. They can unmake the decision to nerf SNAC, but that is entirely their prerogative.

And, excuse my ignorance, but do plugins tax the server much? If they do, using the plugin should be a last resort if it is possible to do without.
All reverting the SNAC nerf would do is make the people that opted for the nerf cry, and you might find Antonio on a snac bomber more often. Not the end of the world, and it would probably fix the problem with the crashes.
(01-16-2019, 05:41 AM)Greylock97 Wrote: [ -> ]All reverting the SNAC nerf would do is make the people that opted for the nerf cry, and you might find Antonio on a snac bomber more often. Not the end of the world, and it would probably fix the problem with the crashes.

There always will be people discordant about the changes, even if these changes obviously have to come. I personally would be happy to see that "balance magic" plugin gone to oblivion, and SNAC reverted back to it's original state: high risk - high reward weapon that makes bombers an actually entertaining class to fly.
(01-16-2019, 05:46 AM)Pito-Chan Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-16-2019, 05:41 AM)Greylock97 Wrote: [ -> ]All reverting the SNAC nerf would do is make the people that opted for the nerf cry, and you might find Antonio on a snac bomber more often. Not the end of the world, and it would probably fix the problem with the crashes.

There always will be people discordant about the changes, even if these changes obviously have to come. I personally would be happy to see that "balance magic" plugin gone to oblivion, and SNAC reverted back to it's original state: high risk - high reward weapon that makes bombers an actually entertaining class to fly.

Exactly. I quite enjoyed screwing around in a SNAC bomber killing Ospreys. It's fun.
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