' Wrote:Warspite, that sounds much like what's slated to happen now. I find it very, very dull. Its basically more of the same that's been going on. Real change involves actually having real change.
Bretonia can stand before losing space. It can be beseiged. I don't know why you're against it, aside from a player attachment to it. Nominally, every person who claims bretonianness should well be against the nation taking hits...but to tell a good story, sometimes you have to be on the losing side.
What you define as "real change" I call a gimmick.
Why am I against it? Yes, I am attached to Bretonia. I find it ridiculous and downright stupid that a vanilla House should suffer to justify the existence of a structurally flawed gimmick House designed to keep players interested that detracts developer time from augmenting and improving existing systems.
Perhaps I would not be so vehemently against such changes if war was done *well* in Discovery. Thus far, it has not - until such time I will instead push for Gallic entry into a conflict over the Taus, not over Bretonia.
The fact of the matter is thus. Gallia is a state much like the Late Roman Empire - an Oriental monarchy which the trappings of a police state, where its civilian body is the exploited appendage of an oversized military. The Gallic obsession with conquest has left it in an economically anaemic state; the vast majority of its economic output has gone into nonproductive sources (the military) rather than being invested back into the economy, which combined with the lack of material wealth in the Gallic core systems has created a downward economic spiral in which the state will simply be unable to fund itself. The unlawful factions will find increasing support as discontent grows, and the feudal structure that Gallia employs to govern itself will play against it as the central monarchy becomes increasingly titular and eventually collapses.
Like the Roman Empire, Gallia can only maintain itself as long as the nonproductive enterprise to which it commits its economy remains a productive force - i.e. in the form of conquest and the material wealth which those conquests unlock. It would be far more profitable and sustainable in the long run if Gallia pursued conquest in the resource-rich Taus. Bretonia has an intransigent population and effective propaganda machine, as well as a means of striking Gallic commerce and supply lines in the form of the Privateers. Not to mention that both the Colonial Remnant and the Outcasts would be striking Gallic efforts to exploit the Taus, which would require large amounts of military coverage to protect.
Gallia's best course of action is to commit itself to the Taus rather than attempt to push into Bretonia or Kusari for the time being.
If the war was based on actual player actions I wouldnt mind if Bret was taking a beating, but getting raped constantly by a storyline we cannot affect is a little harsh. I mean, Bret has ALWAYS been taking the shaft throughout this mod!
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I, personally, would much rather have gallia be erased from the mod than see them at all. I find the concept weak, the plot built from perforated deus ex machina, and have personal concerns about adding space to a game with a limited playerbase. I would much rather have my suggestion substitute Kusari for Gallia, perhaps with more aid from Rheinland to boost its military...as I agree, Gallia is a gimmic.
But you are not going to see Gallia go away. Talk to Cannon, talk to any dev. Gallia's here to stay. (and deleting systems may well involve a necessary playerwipe) Given that Gallia is what we have to work with, and given that the lore of Gallia invading bretonia is not going to change, it still falls on my sensibilities to take what is a horrid piece of plot and work it into the mod in a believeable and engaging way. Ignoring Gallia doesn't work, or will work just as well if a proper invasion is modded into the environment properly.
Bretonia has been shafted, and the lore is rather disinterested in player actions. That sucks. But given that there are tens of billions of npcs in Sirius, and only a few hundred thousand active player characters...you can argue that the PCs aren't likely to affect much. Sometimes you play the underdog. For there to be conflict, someone does have to get properly bloodied.
' Wrote:As a Bretonia player; No. I draw the line at Leeds. The Leeds system is our English Channel, the BAF our Royal Navy. I am fine with raids behind the line by the GNF (in Newcastle and New London) but the bulk of the advance should be held at Leeds.
The storyline should go as thus; with Kusari pushed back into the Taus, Bretonia finds its stations in Leeds back in their hands. BMM and Bowex, having lost Glasgow and Stokes once, commit billions to the reconstruction and fortification of these stations, chartering countless tonnes of materiel from Liberty and the Omegas. The Bretonian propaganda machine and a dogged spirit does its work, and the entirety of Bretonian society commits itself to hold the enemy at Leeds.
Bretonia proves more resilient than Gallia expected. Leeds becomes an all out battleflied, with Bretonia implementing new tactical based on lessons learned in the Taus - capital ships remain positioned at heavily fortified positions where their potency is greatly increased by orbital defence platforms. The BAF fighter and bomber wings, with aid from the Kusari exiles, Mandalorian Mercenaries, and other groups, conduct hit-and run strikes against Gallic forces beyond the defensive perimiters in Leeds, while the QCP's privateering in Gallia proves devastating to Gallic supply lines, adding to the pressure the Outcasts and Colonial remnant put on them in the Taus. The GNF are limited to fighter and bomber strikes in New London and Newcastle which are themselves heavily contested by the BPA and what combat strength BMM, Gateway, Planetform and Bowex can muster.
After a protracted stalemate Gallic morale begins to suffer; the easy conquest they were expecting ground to a halt, Gallic home systems become muttering centres of discontent as the Maquis, Council, and UC find their support base increasing. Worse, the expenditure necessary to maintain such a large military force and the depletion of Gallic core systems begins to take its toll on the Gallic economy, made worse by the continual disruption of commerce by native Gallic rebel groups with the aid of the QCP, Outcasts, and Colonial Remnant. The monarchy's hand is forced, and the GNF begins to commit its forces to secure the resource rich Taus. This effort arouses the ire of Kusari and the IMG, and both Bretonia and Kusari begin to see that necessity might force them into a temporary alliance. As the stalemate draws on further, Kusari commits itself to "limited warfare" - or, more accurately, guerilla warfare to prevent Gallia from establishing a foothold in the Taus. The economic and social pressure on the Gallic government becomes even worse.
Finally, a revelation. Liberty discovers within the ancient archives of their sleeper ship that the Gallic ire towards the Sirian houses is a sham; Coalition spies were in fact responsible for the discovery of the French, Italian, and Australian sleeper ships and the resulting destruction, not a conspiracy by the other four nations of the Alliance. Using this knowledge, Bretonia aids the various unlawful factions in their propaganda campaign, generating massive civil unrest in Gallia as its citizens are forced to confront the notion their government lied to them. Disgruntled members of the GNF, having spent months fighting a bloody stalemate for apparently fabricated reasons, desert Gallia and cause the offensive in Leeds to collapse. This compounds the economic and social pressures within Gallia itself, pushing the French house to the brink of civil war. The government is forced to withdraw their forces back into Gallia to preserve order and combat the increasingly strong Maquis, Council, and Union Corse. The pressure on Bretonia is lifted, and Kusari and Bretonia are now somewhat reconciled owing to the conflict. An uneasy equilibrium between the now five Houses is achieved.
Enter 4.87: Reconstruction, revolving around Gallia and Kusari attempting to deal with their social woes, and Bretonia's efforts to rebuild.
good idea but one point is wrong
Gallic ire towards the Sirian houses is a sham; Coalition spies were in fact responsible for the discovery of the French, Italian, and Australian sleeper ships and the resulting destruction, not a conspiracy by the other four nations of the Alliance.
french new that Coalition destroyed their sleeper ships & they asked alliance to build them another one since the first one's were destroyed
Alliance refuses as per the limted time & resources
French get angry & get all their resources & material power togther to build their own sleeper ship & take an oath that they will take a revenge on alliance in sirus
' Wrote:What you define as "real change" I call a gimmick.
Why am I against it? Yes, I am attached to Bretonia. I find it ridiculous and downright stupid that a vanilla House should suffer to justify the existence of a structurally flawed gimmick House designed to keep players interested that detracts developer time from augmenting and improving existing systems.
Perhaps I would not be so vehemently against such changes if war was done *well* in Discovery. Thus far, it has not - until such time I will instead push for Gallic entry into a conflict over the Taus, not over Bretonia.
Seriously, a 4x1 disadvantage in battleships (and, I guess in other craft as well?), also taking into account that Gallic battleships have the best sieging capabilities in the whole Sirius due to it's really large forward cannon and represent one of the heaviest battleships that currently exist, I don't see how Bretonia survives that even if Gallics will just push forward in a line formation.
Just a reminder - in the last 60 years, with all the technological development, not a single time partisans achieved a military victory against any of the major powers. All that they can realistically do - is to increase the cost of the war by partially disrupting few supply lines.
I know warfare in space is different, but the results would be same. Don't mention the 80 years war, it's worse then Gallic Deus Ex Machina. (had a discussion on that one in "Freelancer forum" year ago)
Also, another reminder. Higher numbers are used not to overwhelm your enemy with your corpses, like, for example, West portrayed Soviet military machine, but to have overwhelming firepower and better tactical options, that results in reduced losses. This is why the higher your numerical superiority is, the lower your losses are. I guess you can imagine what that means for Bretonia.
' Wrote:Seriously, a 4x1 disadvantage in battleships, also taking into account that Gallic battleships have the best sieging capabilities in the whole Sirius due to it's really large forward cannon... I don't see how Bretonia survives that even if Gallic will just push forward in a line formation.
Vietnam, and Bretonia has a home field advantage.
Quote:Also, another reminder. Higher numbers are used not to overwhelm your enemy with your corpses, like, for example, West portrayed Soviet military machine, but to have overwhelming firepower and better tactical options, that results in reduced losses. This is why the higher your numerical superiority is, the lower your losses are.
Not in the least. Tactically speaking high numbers only encourages generals to view their units as expendable.
Quote:Also, just a reminder - in the last 60 years, with all the technological development, not a single time partisans achieved a military victory against any of the major powers. All that they can realistically do - is to increase the cost of the war by partially disrupting few supply lines.
That is because "military victories" in the Western sense are not necessary to defeat a major power in the case of asymmetrical warfare. As a matter of fact, the last major power to win an asymmetrical conflict was the British in the Second Boer war.
In terms of supply lines, Bretonia has the advantage. Their major centres of production are either on the battlefield itself or a system away from the battlefield - their ships do not have to cross the border worlds where they would face fierce guerilla combat from Outcasts, Privateers, and Colonial Remnant Forces.
Quote: I know warfare in space is different, but the results would be same. Don't mention the 80 years war, it's worse then Gallic Deus Ex Machina. (had a discussion on that one in "Freelancer forum" year ago)
No, I am going to mention the Boer War, Vietnam, and other asymmetrical wars.
' Wrote:Vietnam, and Bretonia has a home field advantage.
Vietnam, like Soviet Afghanistan, was never a military defeat. Secondly, in both cases militaries were following their RoE. That's not a case with Gallia-Bretonia all out war. Want to go deeper into matter?
Quote:Not in the least. Tactically speaking high numbers only encourages generals to view their units as expendable.
That is because "military victories" in the Western sense are not necessary to defeat a major power in the case of asymmetrical warfare. As a matter of fact, the last major power to win an asymmetrical conflict was the British in the Second Boer war.
In terms of supply lines, Bretonia has the advantage. Their major centres of production are either on the battlefield itself or a system away from the battlefield - their ships do not have to cross the border worlds where they would face fierce guerilla combat from Outcasts, Privateers, and Colonial Remnant Forces.
No, I am going to mention the Boer War, Vietnam, and other asymmetrical wars.
The problem is, they don't have time for buildup. How much time does it take for a shipyard to produce a battleship, for example? How many can be produced at once? How many shipyards left? What about the resources required for all of that? What quality those, probably rare, battleships will be due to the usage of inadequate materials at their production? (different metals, etc)
All Gallia currently needs with all of its numbers and firepower advantage is to break into Leeds system through the Jumpgate/Jumphole "bottlenecks". After that planet Leeds is doomed. Tau 31/23 was the only place where you could really stop Gallic advance, due to the density of asteroid field and size of Gallic capital ships. But then again, their cruiser advantage, as someone mentioned, is even higher.
Minefields are a whole different story. Judging from the pure scale of those "minefields", that are capable of surrounding a planet, you can probably build a whole armada of battleships from all the materials spent on those. Bad thing, those materials alone are, probably, inadequate for that task.
And about Boer war, did I mention "in the last 60 years, due to technological development". The gap between "Big and Rich/Industrially developed" and "small and poor/industrially undeveloped" adversaries increases as technology develops.
Of course you can make Bretonia hold Leeds. Hell, you can make Bretonia advance into Gallia and grab New Paris. It's a Freelancer, a computer game.
Won't make it less ridiculous, though.
People keep saying Bretonia doesn't have time for a buildup, which is incorrect. They've been engaging in buildups for quite a while, on the grounds that it was nessisary to push back the Kusari. There are rumors on BS Norfolk to that extent, and on other bases, and have been there for multiple mods.
Leeds as a system is doomed in my expectation. So is the entirety of newcastle, and much of London. The planets of Leeds and London will not fall, because, frankly, if either one falls, Bretonia ceases to exist, and I don't think we'll be able to force that through the gauntlet of appeals it takes to actually change things in this mod(else I'd aim for that as well, because I'm a bastard).
As for comparing freelancer to the last 60 years, you've a huge mistake. The last 60 years are a time period of drastic technological change, while the last 400 in freelancer have been a time of stagnation. You're much more accurate in comparing the military endeavors to such periods as the Boer War, and you have to bear in mind that superpowers today win in large part because they're so economically distant from smaller powers. The economies of Freelancer have had at least the period of technological stagnation to equalize, thus production should mainly be based on population.
Furthermore, if a polity the size of the Mollies can hold Dublin for , then Bretonia can certainly harden and hold Leeds and London for a few years.
As for how I was thinking Bretonia might actually do the hardening of Leeds, I was thinking much along the lines of minefields and traps.
Tradelanes can be sabotaged to dump fleets into minefields, the smog fields, with their low sensor range and jh networks, can be turned into impassible barriers. Battlegroups can hide in the glare of the sun, getting behind the main force of the Gallics, which I propose be the primary method that Bretonia employs its fleets to muck up the Gallic advance: By constantly taking advantage of the three dimensional nature of space to get beyond the brunt of the Gallic force and make it need to dispatch groups to cover its exceedingly long supply and reinforcement lines.
The fear for the Gallics is that there's constantly a trap waiting, that battlegroups will emerge from smog clouds or jump in from deep space. Even though they've the numerical advantage, they've a monstrous amount of space to cover, and they do do not know it, and even during the siege, Bretonia will likely be increasing the dangers of the systems.
I'm not saying its necessarily not a less than likely possibility that bretonia doesn't dissapear, but that's the lore as its been presented, and if you want to argue that, I'm not the person to talk to.
' Wrote:People keep saying Bretonia doesn't have time for a buildup, which is incorrect. They've been engaging in buildups for quite a while, on the grounds that it was nessisary to push back the Kusari. There are rumors on BS Norfolk to that extent, and on other bases, and have been there for multiple mods.
Well, current ratio in BSes stays same, 120:30? And 1 to 10 in cruisers?
Quote:Leeds as a system is doomed in my expectation. So is the entirety of newcastle, and much of London. The planets of Leeds and London will not fall, because, frankly, if either one falls, Bretonia ceases to exist, and I don't think we'll be able to force that through the gauntlet of appeals it takes to actually change things in this mod(else I'd aim for that as well, because I'm a bastard).
True, agree on that one. There's realism, and there's balance/storytelling.
Quote:As for comparing freelancer to the last 60 years, you've a huge mistake. The last 60 years are a time period of drastic technological change, while the last 400 in freelancer have been a time of stagnation. You're much more accurate in comparing the military endeavors to such periods as the Boer War, and you have to bear in mind that superpowers today win in large part because they're so economically distant from smaller powers. The economies of Freelancer have had at least the period of technological stagnation to equalize, thus production should mainly be based on population.
Not quite. Of course, modern powers made a huge technological leap. But you're forgetting that together with it, the cost of, say, 1 unit of weapons was increasing drastically as well. Compare the costs of, say, F-86Sabre and F-15. Mig 21 and Su-35S. F-15 and a Raptor/F35 << and Raptor is just a next.gen compared to F-15. M60 and Abrams M1A2 (I'm specially using mainly western designations so it'll be easier to compare for you). Compare the industrial capabilities to mass produce those. They were constantly decreasing relatively, while increasing absolutely. Costs go higher faster then economy/industry develops. Sherman required certain amount of factories to produce. I bet Abrams has a significantly longer production chain. (I'm taking into account everything, starting from resources.
And all abovementioned processes were happened in the same country(-ies) where technological development happens.
Denmark is a rich country, but no way in hell it'd be able to solely produce own Super Carrier. To produce ICBM from zero you need around three to five hundred factories/production facilities (not talking about bolts and screws, starting from special alloys, microchips, etc). That's hundred of technologies, etc.
Quote:Furthermore, if a polity the size of the Mollies can hold Dublin for , then Bretonia can certainly harden and hold Leeds and London for a few years.
Well, GMG won 80 year war. I'd just grab few molly pilots (since, well, it seems it IS possible to capture em)/plant spies/contact with junkers/smugglers etc, get the location of jumpholes and their bases, blocked em off (or better disable, if possible), and would be happy, at least for some time. Information gathering is key here, by any means necessary.
If we bring realism into Houses vs Pirates balance, pirates will soon have to search a place and resources for new bases.
Quote:As for how I was thinking Bretonia might actually do the hardening of Leeds, I was thinking much along the lines of minefields and traps.
Tradelanes can be sabotaged to dump fleets into minefields, the smog fields, with their low sensor range and jh networks, can be turned into impassible barriers. Battlegroups can hide in the glare of the sun, getting behind the main force of the Gallics, which I propose be the primary method that Bretonia employs its fleets to muck up the Gallic advance: By constantly taking advantage of the three dimensional nature of space to get beyond the brunt of the Gallic force and make it need to dispatch groups to cover its exceedingly long supply and reinforcement lines.
Wouldn't use the enemy Trade Lanes if I was Gallic commander. Just few asteroids placed in the middle of TL would totally screw anyone who's coming through. Hell, even simple rocks, meter in diameter. At superluminal speed a small rock will deal immense damage.
What you described can be done with enemy located in tight terrain or by having numerical parity or slight disadvantage. Leeds is, generally, open terrain with pair asteroid clouds that doesn't affect anything (but can serve as a cover for guerilla forces). Smoke clouds are located too far south and south-east to have any real impact on the battle for Planet Leeds.
Quote:The fear for the Gallics is that there's constantly a trap waiting, that battlegroups will emerge from smog clouds or jump in from deep space. Even though they've the numerical advantage, they've a monstrous amount of space to cover, and they do do not know it, and even during the siege, Bretonia will likely be increasing the dangers of the systems.
I'm not saying its necessarily not a less than likely possibility that bretonia doesn't dissapear, but that's the lore as its been presented, and if you want to argue that, I'm not the person to talk to.
I'll give you a scenario now, lemme check into the game (will edit my post)
2 Battlegroups enter Leeds, from North and South West. Say, a 100 BSes, and appropriate number of lesser crafts. (might be higher, I'm not sure how much are needed to secure flanks in Taus from OCies, BAF raids etc.). They split. Let's leave pair of BSes at JGs. Now larger part (battlegroup that consists out of 60 BSes) will move from North to South, E3 to E5. Few dedicated cruiser assault and recon groups go forward and disable the Trade Lanes.
Same happens at south, fleet consisting of 30 BS class vessels moving through B3-B5, along the cloud, keeping the distance from it. Or hell, they're moving over it (you said you're going to use 3D warfare, eh?)
Although better to move along and disable TLs, to prevent enemy jumping into your back.
Remember!their moving speed is same as yours. You cant magically teleport around system and attack em in various places with your forces.
Another 6 (or 3x2bs?) battlegroups cre doing something.
Counter that. you have just 30 battleships total that are of lighter class and 10 times less cruisers then enemy (in whole of bretonia, on all fronts). Any assault on those 2 battlegroups on open terrain (and i'm moving them through open terrain) means a suicide attack, even for fighters. (not speaking about heavier vessels).
Well, going to sleep now, otherwise it'd be more detailed. And I'm not good at all at tactical level, maybe someone can play better for gallics:)
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