Underpowered ships that have been around for awhile

[crimecities]

Looking at a list of ships within the Discovery Mod, I see a few vessels that stand out as being underpowered since 4.85 or earlier. They had a purpose in previous mod versions, but that purpose is gone now. I'm not talking about minor balance issues, or low tier ships that could be used by new players as an upgrade path to proper fighters. I am talking about ships with major major balance issues that should of been fixed by now - ships that would no doubt see some use if only they didn't have glaring balance issues.

Armored Transport: The 4.84 armored transport was too powerful - transport shields plus agility plus small size made it more deadly then most gunboats. 4.85 nerfed it too much, and it is still too weak to actually be useful.

To improve it, let's start by making it unable to mount transport turrets. Transport guns are too big for such a small model. From there, rebalance it either as a freighter/transport hybrid or an ultralight gunboat with an extended cargobay (without making it the 4.84 AT again). Its shield can be changed too - perhaps a freighter shield, or not giving it enough energy to support Adv. Transport shield...

The AT's size already makes it tougher then standard trains (although not really enough to save it). A few tweaks might make it a really tough nut for pirates to crack, and it's small cargo hold automatically prevents it from being a powertrader ship.

EDIT: I feel that this ship should be rebalanced as an ultralight gunship or freighter/transport hybrid. Somehow I failed to include that part when I typed this up

Yacht: Ahh, where do I began? Gunboat slot, but no energy to fire battle razors or pulse cannons. Gunboat turret only fires forward. Overpriced for what it's worth.

It was origionally put in as it was a luxury vessel that was not a yacht. Now that yachts are considered transports again, it currently serves little purpose.

To improve it? Give it a cruise speed of 370 to match the +20 to impulse speed. Perhaps give it enough energy to actually fire 1 battle razor shot, but not enough energy for it to serve as a gunboat proper. Perhaps make all the turrets gunboat turrets, with powerplant limitations keeping it from being a gunboat? Or perhaps replace the forward gunboat slot with an actual forward gun custom-balanced for the ship that uses it. 70 mil for 1500 cargo is too much - lower the cost?

Moldy Crow: What's wrong with this vessel, you ask? From a pure balance perspective, nothing. But the model has all those engines on it and yet cruises slower then light fighters and freighters.

I propose boosting its cruise speed to 395. Now you got a heavy fighter that can act as an interceptor. Make it somewhat fragile to make up for this - less hull, less nanobots. Compared to a light fighter, this ship gets more firepower in exchange for survivability, but it is still more agile then freighters are.

These aren't minor balance nitpicks. These are huge sweeping oversights that make these ships completely unusable. As we continue to introduce more new stuff, we must remember to update the old stuff from time to time.

Please do not let this thread devolve into minor nitpicking about balance. That pales in comparison to the ones I am pointing out.

[kikatsu]

Interesting ideas.... I have flown the Yatch back in the day, and I think it really doesn't really...do it's thing. Personally I would think that lowering it's cargo and maybe upgrading it to full gunboat weapons, or keeping the guns and giving it a GB shield would be a nice change. Something maybe to drag it inline to something like the Salvager in terms of comparison, but more on the defensive side than the trading side of balance?

Dunno much about the armored transport, I have fought them back in 4.84 and they were tough, did not see one since then so I guess it was super nerfed.

And the Moldy Crow just needs an entirely new purpose and new model... depending on how that goes I guess we will see balance wise, but a heavy interceptor is a rather interesting idea... it could be faster, have more firepower, but lack maneuverability and survivability of light fighters.

[Echo 7-7]

Resize the Virage. It's significantly bigger than the Guardian yet it's one of the weakest (armour, core) VHFs on the market.

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There was a sig here, once.

[Crackpunch]

Moldy Crow is a massive HF with great agility and monstrous firepower. I'd say its fine.

If you made it have weaker hull, it would be ruined.

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[Hone]

Moldy Crow is a star wars import and so will be removed.

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User was banned for: Griefing others
Time left: (Permanent)

[crimecities]

But what will replace the Moldy Crow? I think the idea of a fast, heavy, fragile interceptor has merit.

You don't see armored transports anymore because they are just so Q_Q terrible. They don't even do their canonical job of protecting their precious cargo.

The old Rheinland Pirate Cruiser (now the RH-GM461 "Hel" Cruiser) does appear to be statistically worse to the Red Hessian cruiser in every respect. But at least it has a valid RP reason to be terrible - it's an old outdated ship hull!

I have never flown the Virage - is it really that terrible?

[Crackpunch]

The old Rheinland Pirate Cruiser (now the RH-GM461 "Hel" Cruiser) does appear to be statistically worse to the Red Hessian cruiser in every respect. But at least it has a valid RP reason to be terrible - it's an old outdated ship hull!

Where are you getting your numbers? The RPC is far more maneuverable than the Vidar (unless the Vidar got more agile in 86).

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[Juan_Arquero]

The Pelican Armored Transport has been one of my favorite ships since 4.83 -- it gained the Pelican name in 4.85. Standard transport turrets on the AT look horrible, so I had the habit in 4.85 of buying small transport turrets at Roppongi Station. Those small transport turrets are much smaller than standard transport turrets. The AT is usually my first transport for a trader character. I see no reason to change the AT.

However, that brings up another issue. The AT is an incredible bargain when compared with the Hercules Civilian Heavy Lifter. The AT is superior to the HL in every way: weapons (2 guns & 2 extra turrets on AT), cargo space (800 vs. 750), hull (60k vs. 40k) and bots/bats (240 vs. 150). Hardly anybody ever buys a Heavy Lifter, since it costs a couple million more due to including type 4 transport turrets and it is inferior to the AT. I think the Heavy Lifter should be fixed by reducing the price substantially and selling it without weapons (but make sure that transport turrets are available for sale at any base that sells the HL).

[ryoken]

No one buys heavy lifter because it is massive for its stats.

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[crimecities]

Where are you getting your numbers? The RPC is far more maneuverable than the Vidar (unless the Vidar got more agile in 86).

Off of FLStat

Max Angular Speed, Angular Distance from 0 to 0.5 sec (deg), and Time to 90% Max Angular Speed are all the same for both ships.

Of course it is possible that FLStat isn't giving me the whole story - I don't have actual experience flying those ships. Maybe I am wrong.