(03-14-2013, 04:56 PM)Knjaz Wrote: As for yours, Stoat's and few other guy's comment on BHG shipline, I seriously recommend taking a lesson from Anaximander and actually reading my post, next time at least.
Yes, part of my response was sarcastic. Sorry for that. I can't begin to say how many times I've seen this thread come up, and how much wasted breath has been expended on having to explain this over and over again.
The BHG does not need to field capitals in house space. Never has. Never did. Got a problem with a cap? Get a friend to help and share the bounty, or help out the local law enforcement and possibly get paid twice. Want to fight off those pirate caps using a cap yourself? Then join up with the local navy. Specifically want to fly a Guild cap? Then join the Core, fly to deep space and kill the Order, the Nomads and anyone else that gets in the way of the Core's objectives.
I fail to see why this is such a problem for people. I can only put it down to an "I want, I want, I want" attitude, and an inability to accept that just maybe you can't have exactly what you want, whenever you want it. This is an RP server. The established RP of the BHG and BHG Core is that the Core fly the caps out in the far flung reaches and the regular hunters don't. While the Core have their eyes on gaining all the Nomad tech they can for themselves, they aint gonna be sending in caps for the regular hunters to use in house space. Why would they? They get all the finances they need with the house hunters flying fighters, bombers and gunboats.
Don't like it? Well, people can always ignore the established RP of the server, buy a Mako, stick a navy ID on it and fly it anyway. It's not like there's much of a nerf on the power core.
Or, how's this for an idea. Join the BHG. Work hard. Join the leadership of the faction. Get everyone to agree that your ideas for allowing BHG Caps in house space will benefit the faction. Put in the request to the admins.
I think you are blowing things out of proportion, Stoat, with all due respect.
I don't see the big fuss, really, that people want a BHG cap ZOI that sort-of matches the cap ZOI of main enemies. I liked EDGE when they were around, the concept of a BHG cap fleet hunting unlawful caps in the Tau's and Omegas appeal to me. That very same freedom of ZOI that the BHG ID offers to snub pilots, it would be nice if something similar could be extended to those who like action and like to pilot caps. I have fun hunting bounties in snubs, I'd have fun hunting bigger targets in a cap too. I don't think that's sinful or ego-centrical; your critique is mis-guided (and very much ad-hominem).
Regarding the established lore, before the days of CORE the BHG were in fact fielding caps for bounty hunting - lore was re-written, it can be re-re-written again.
Sure, I agree it would suck badly if BHG caps are roaming house core territory, but in more-or-less unregulated border systems (like Kansas/Magellan/Cortez or the Sigmas, Tau's Omegas) I don't see the big problem. If regular BHG could field caps, the rules of engagement would be the same as for snubs, i.e. you'd have to register on a board and so on, which in itself limits capspam and random unfounded pews.
You see my point exactly. According to the established law, the BHG can't field caps. It's purely because of the abuse of BHG Caps in house space that it was stopped by removing access to them from the ID. The past and current leaderships of the BHG faction do not want to see hunters in caps in house space. So like I said, join the BHG (I'm not referring to you specifically here, Anaximander, but anyone that thinks the BHG should fly caps). Convince the current leadership of the BHG that it will benefit the faction for the regular hunters to fly caps. Then go nuts.
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The Core's main enemies?You mean the Order and the Nomads?
Those two mostly stay in the Omicrons.
Or maybe Corsairs?No problems finding them.
Outcasts?Sure,gotta fly a bit,though.
Plus,if you want so badly to shoot order or nomads in the sigmas and omegas or whatever,you can always do it with smaller ships.
It's not like you are obligated to hunt voidnoms with Makos.
Also,do name a faction that hunts bounties with cruisers and battleships.
I haven't seen that in a loooooooong while.
True, but again I wouldn't mind. Daumann had some in-rp troubles in the Omegas and enough credits to hire a small efficient fleet to take care of it; I'd have thought that was pretty cool if the ID's allowed it.
Lolseurs would never make their way to Liberty if there were BHG caps present along the route to claim their scalps and so on.
The thing is (for me at least), when you fly a cap (be it a Ranseur or a Mako), you like to have other caps to shoot at. It would be fun for all parties, and through the Bounty Board system the use of BHG caps (and their ZOI) could be restricted to be less intrusive than they once were. BHG ID doesn't allow the "pew all the bad guys" as the Core ID does (in the Omicrons, granted); it IS pretty strict in terms of engagement. You could even make it so that BHG caps aren't allowed to collect on (and thus engage) snubs through the Bounty Board system.
(03-14-2013, 08:20 PM)Jinx Wrote: gotto think of the capital warships from another angle
the only REASON the core has them "was" - cause they did NOT have any infrastructure - nor very good friends in the area they hunted nomads.
the capital ships are not build, cause they need big guns - they are build, cause they needed provisional base ships. - the zoners of delta are more friendly with the order - the corsairs dislike the bhg - so they had to live somewhere.
now they have a small depot with dabadaru - if they ever establish a fully fletched bridgehead - they would not need capital warships anymore - and probably would scrap them. they cost a fortune to maintain compared to the efficiency and cost of a fighter for an organization that is focussed very much on profit.
Yep, I know that. There's another part of the story, though.
Thresher's infocard. Unchanged from, at least, 4.85.
Quote:When the Bounty Hunters Guild started to operate in Nomad space, they encountered unexpected hardships - even the most advanced Hammerheads were unable to survive in hostile environment. Because of the enormous potential profits, the Bounty Hunters invested into developing a new Destroyer-class ship that was later constructed in Liberty military shipyards. With their new destroyers, the Bounty Hunters felt much more confident among their Nomad, Corsair and Order enemies, being able to hunt Nomads and even fulfill bounty contracts against the Corsairs in the most remote parts of known space.
Same goes for the Bullhead. And only in Mako's infocard we encounter mentions of it's importance for BHG Logistics.
(and imho, Mako design is absolutely horrible for the purpose of "deep space carrier", it's a light battleship-class assault platform. Don't get me wrong, I love the outer looks and performance of the ship. it's just totally unfitting for it's "established" RP role. but oh well, I'm several years late with that "imho")
Also, snubcraft cost efficinecy and performance against combined arms battlegroup with capital ships would be horribly low, inRP. Caps also aren't there solely for purpose of countering other caps (inRP, that is). Already covered by Hasteric.
(03-14-2013, 10:28 PM)Pancakes Wrote: Yes because BHG caps became the general guardians of mining fields, which would a situation that wouldn't be tolerable by the houses, and those capital ships would get wiped out inRP.
And the fact that somebody used a ship that he couldn't use to escort those miners through House Space due to server rules and that would be Killed on Sight by both Lawful and Unlawful inhabitants of the region created a serious problem... in what way, exactly?
(03-15-2013, 01:34 PM)Anaximander Wrote: True, but again I wouldn't mind. Daumann had some in-rp troubles in the Omegas and enough credits to hire a small efficient fleet to take care of it; I'd have thought that was pretty cool if the ID's allowed it.
Already happened, once. And the skies didn't fall on earth. Daumann went bankrupt, though.
EDIT: Would be good to change thread's name to "BHG ID and Capital ships", since this thread, starting from original post, is not exactly about Core ID, but about how BHG is uncapable to counter pirate capital ships with their own, etc.
(03-15-2013, 12:52 PM)Stoat Wrote: Yes, part of my response was sarcastic. Sorry for that. I can't begin to say how many times I've seen this thread come up, and how much wasted breath has been expended on having to explain this over and over again.
And this will come up over and over again because, as it seems, a good portion of people do not agree with the way things are.
Quote:The BHG does not need to field capitals in house space. Never has. Never did. Got a problem with a cap?
Never said they should have an ability to field capitals in house space.
Only mentioned 4.85 situation, that was pretty damn well balanced. It could even use some less restrictions, making them RP based. (edit: the real situation, as in where people used Core ID as BHG Guard one, and were fielding caps in non-house systems. Applies to the second last sentence of this post as well)
<...>
Quote:This is an RP server. The established RP of the BHG and BHG Core is that the Core fly the caps out in the far flung reaches and the regular hunters don't. While the Core have their eyes on gaining all the Nomad tech they can for themselves, they aint gonna be sending in caps for the regular hunters to use in house space. Why would they? They get all the finances they need with the house hunters flying fighters, bombers and gunboats.
Don't like it? Well, people can always ignore the established RP of the server, buy a Mako, stick a navy ID on it and fly it anyway. It's not like there's much of a nerf on the power core.
Or, how's this for an idea. Join the BHG. Work hard. Join the leadership of the faction. Get everyone to agree that your ideas for allowing BHG Caps in house space will benefit the faction. Put in the request to the admins.
That's, unfortunately, exactly the way things currently are.
Imho, such things would be better to be decided by Devs and balance team, not by the faction itself.
BHG groups in 86 got downgraded into generic Freelancer IDs in terms of available shiplines, while being restricted to exclusively lawful behavior and lawful Bounty Boards. And the fact that BHG/Core leadership is happy about that situation looks more like a problem to me, than an "established RP of a faction, that should not be touched".
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Thing is,if the devs/admins didn't agreed to these restrictions,they most likely wouldn't have put them in the ID.
From a RP side of view,most the Core Capital Fleet got decimated in the Battle of Toledo,there's not enough warships for the Core alone.
From OOC point of view,if Makos can roam freely all over the place,people will spam them like mad,along with threshers and bullheads.(Like it was in 4.84)
That will eventually result in sanctions,nerfs and ID restrictions and we will be back here.
It's like having a house military ID'd battleship and using to hunt pirates in the Omicrons.
Every faction has it's role,try to understand that.
(03-15-2013, 04:10 PM)Implosion Wrote: Thing is,if the devs/admins didn't agreed to these restrictions,they most likely wouldn't have put them in the ID.
Of course, things were done for a reason. But sometimes when things are done in haste to rectify a current pressing problem, they aren't fully thought through. I can think of numerous ways to make a system that doesn't lead to capspam (or at least caps that can engage things) with minimal effort.
(03-15-2013, 04:10 PM)Implosion Wrote: From a RP side of view,most the Core Capital Fleet got decimated in the Battle of Toledo,there's not enough warships for the Core alone.
True, but as I understand it APM are still able to build ships, and as stated in the Thresher infocard, House shipyards have pinched in in the past. With the amount of credits in the Bounty Board, and the somewhat undefined sources of income Core has, I would think there'd be a clear economic incentive for APM to produce for regular hunters in large scale, if needed.
(03-15-2013, 04:10 PM)Implosion Wrote: From OOC point of view,if Makos can roam freely all over the place,people will spam them like mad,along with threshers and bullheads.(Like it was in 4.84)
That will eventually result in sanctions,nerfs and ID restrictions and we will be back here.
It's like having a house military ID'd battleship and using to hunt pirates in the Omicrons.
Well again, that can easily be limited by very simple bounty board rules. No reason to believe that it will be the end of the world as we know it.
(03-15-2013, 04:10 PM)Implosion Wrote: Every faction has it's role,try to understand that.
But every faction is dynamic, roles change over time. That is the history of BHG/BHG Guard/BHG CORE more than most other factions. Things doesn't have to be - and aren't - set in stone.
(03-15-2013, 04:10 PM)Implosion Wrote: From a RP side of view,most the Core Capital Fleet got decimated in the Battle of Toledo,there's not enough warships for the Core alone.
True, but as I understand it APM are still able to build ships, and as stated in the Thresher infocard, House shipyards have pinched in in the past. With the amount of credits in the Bounty Board, and the somewhat undefined sources of income Core has, I would think there'd be a clear economic incentive for APM to produce for regular hunters in large scale, if needed.
Core doesn't have an income, all they do is fight the Nomads/Order and Sairs so that they can obtain Nomad weapons for future use.
And right now no House would make it's shipyards available so that the BHG can build their ships for their own use. Since Liberty is occupied with Rheinland/Gallia.
Rheinland nearly doesn't have any rescourcess left anyway.
Kusari is under the leash of Gallia so very restricted and doesn't like the BHG anyway
And Bretonia is getting bashed by Gallia.
(03-15-2013, 04:10 PM)Implosion Wrote: From OOC point of view,if Makos can roam freely all over the place,people will spam them like mad,along with threshers and bullheads.(Like it was in 4.84)
That will eventually result in sanctions,nerfs and ID restrictions and we will be back here.
It's like having a house military ID'd battleship and using to hunt pirates in the Omicrons.
Well again, that can easily be limited by very simple bounty board rules. No reason to believe that it will be the end of the world as we know it.
So the restriction should be liftet just so that the Bounty Boards have to say: "no caps allowed"
Because no House Boards will allow that, maybe Boards like IMG would, but that's not for sure.
(03-15-2013, 04:10 PM)Implosion Wrote: Every faction has it's role,try to understand that.
But every faction is dynamic, roles change over time. That is the history of BHG/BHG Guard/BHG CORE more than most other factions. Things doesn't have to be - and aren't - set in stone.
That much is true, but what has changed for the Core to send it's caps away from the hard hitting enemies (Nomads/Sairs) to go Bounty Hunting pirates for a small amount of cash?
IMO the Core got battered at Minor with the Order, meaning that they are replenishing their Force again.
My 2 cents.
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