Pirate ID insufficient.

[sovereign]

The point isn't so much, anymore, that these groups are terrorists, not in the case of the Outcasts, anyway, its that they aren't Pirates. The Outcast House is a rogue nation, and has no reason to resort to piracy, and should not be classified as a pirate group. They should be classified as a nation at war with Kusari, Rheinland (hostile??) and Liberty, and neutral towards Bretonia.

And, why shouldn't there be multiple 'terrorist'(revolutionary) factions? they have different goals, and just because liberty only has one group...and bretonia is only proposed to have one group..Rheinland has two groups as well(noticing a pattern? the less free the nation, the more revolutionaries as opposed to regular criminals). The fact is, the only real 'pirate' groups in Sirius are the LH, and the corsairs (who, if you haven't noticed, are spread out across every region of Sirius.) the other groups are more localized because they have, generally, a specific cause. Piracy, generally, does not do much to champion a cause.

struck the heart of the issue. again. good job at everything, Unselie!

I might leave Liberty Rogues as pirates, at least in functionality if not ideology, and I don't see how the Red Hessians aren't pirates (might say on their infocard, I remember something about similarity to Bundschuh but corrupted by profits), but otherwise I agree fully.

Keep up the reviews guys, and thanks again!

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[Qunitinius~Verginix]

The Rogues are pirates. They are the scum of Liberty who do anything for cash. Thats basically how I see them anyways. However, msot of the other groups usually only resorted to Piracy because of their situations, and that they need funding and the Governments didn;t like them.

Verg

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[chopper]

The point isn't so much, anymore, that these groups are terrorists, not in the case of the Outcasts, anyway, its that they aren't Pirates. The Outcast House is a rogue nation, and has no reason to resort to piracy, and should not be classified as a pirate group. They should be classified as a nation at war with Kusari, Rheinland (hostile??) and Liberty, and neutral towards Bretonia.

And, why shouldn't there be multiple 'terrorist'(revolutionary) factions? they have different goals, and just because liberty only has one group...and bretonia is only proposed to have one group..Rheinland has two groups as well(noticing a pattern? the less free the nation, the more revolutionaries as opposed to regular criminals). The fact is, the only real 'pirate' groups in Sirius are the LH, and the corsairs (who, if you haven't noticed, are spread out across every region of Sirius.) the other groups are more localized because they have, generally, a specific cause. Piracy, generally, does not do much to champion a cause.

I disagree. Outcasts have bigger ZOI (they are spread across more regions then Corsairs), and yet they aren't Pirates?
Yes they are wealthy, but so are Corsairs. Artifacts for Corsairs are equivalent for Outcasts Cardamine.
So, what is the big difference between them?
Both Outcasts and Corsairs are real pirates.
There are 2 types of both.
Outcast example :

-Those who live in Omicrons, earn their money from Cardamine, fighting against Corsairs.
-Those who Pirate in the rest of Sirius. (except Brettonia)

Same for Corsairs :

-Those who live in Omicrons, earn their money trough Artifacts, fighting against Outcasts, BHG, Nomads, Hessians.
-Those who Pirate in the rest of Sirius (except Liberty and Rheinland).

They are pretty much the same, and that is intentionally made like that.
You can't just pull out your own assumptions and make it your way.
They aren't fighting for overthrowing anyone, am i right?
They don't have their own house to fight against, like other Terrorists have.
So, Local factions (like Xenos, Gaians, Bundies, Farmers, even BD) can be called Terrorists, as they have a specific house to Terrorize.
Outcasts and Corsairs are simply Pirate Houses. That's it.
On one side, they are fighting a never ending war, and on another, they simply Pirate for their own families.
Not all of them earn money trough Cardamine, some of them have to pirate to buy Cardamine.
I hope this clears things a bit, if not, we can continue this discussion.

And this is a discussion, I'm not flaming anyone, and I'm not being harsh.

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[sovereign]

I disagree. Outcasts have bigger ZOI (they are spread across more regions then Corsairs), and yet they aren't Pirates?
Yes they are wealthy, but so are Corsairs. Artifacts for Corsairs are equivalent for Outcasts Cardamine.
So, what is the big difference between them?
Both Outcasts and Corsairs are real pirates.
There are 2 types of both.
Outcast example :

-Those who live in Omicrons, earn their money from Cardamine, fighting against Corsairs.
-Those who Pirate in the rest of Sirius. (except Brettonia)

Same for Corsairs :

-Those who live in Omicrons, earn their money trough Artifacts, fighting against Outcasts, BHG, Nomads, Hessians.
-Those who Pirate in the rest of Sirius (except Liberty and Rheinland).

They are pretty much the same, and that is intentionally made like that.
You can't just pull out your own assumptions and make it your way.
They aren't fighting for overthrowing anyone, am i right?
They don't have their own house to fight against, like other Terrorists have.
So, Local factions (like Xenos, Gaians, Bundies, Farmers, even BD) can be called Terrorists, as they have a specific house to Terrorize.
Outcasts and Corsairs are simply Pirate Houses. That's it.
On one side, they are fighting a never ending war, and on another, they simply Pirate for their own families.
Not all of them earn money trough Cardamine, some of them have to pirate to buy Cardamine.
I hope this clears things a bit, if not, we can continue this discussion.

And this is a discussion, I'm not flaming anyone, and I'm not being harsh.

I agree, Outcasts and Corsairs aren't terrorists, although there are occasions they might attack without warning (such as a major police force cracking down on a major smuggling route; but then both groups are likely to KoS; in the case of Outcasts they should also have no problems murdering everything Cryer Pharmaceuticals). They aren't simple pirates, and should be more than just 'pirate ID' since they have specifically different pieces, smugglers and military. Perhaps breaking their ID into two pieces (one military, one smuggler) might be best, but that's open to interpretation. Suggestions?

Also, we can agree that Lane Hackers, Liberty Rogues, and Red Hessians are pirates, right? If someone could look into the Unioners since that was brought up, that would be excellent too.

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[Equinox]

Unioners gave up terrorism a long ago and became pirates, its written all over the place ingame.

I think Ares knows more about that if you want to ask him.

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[bluntpencil2001]

Equinox is correct, not just Unioners, but all of the criminal factions in Rheinland originally started as ideological 'terrorists', but the impossibility of their situation thanks to the Rheinland Military as well as a lack of funds and supplies forced them to use piracy to achieve their goals. This is even true of Bundschuh.

After some time, these terror groups began to consider the money made from piracy as their goal, as opposed to a means to an end.

For more info on Unioners, speak to Kress, he knows them well.

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[Oniros]

All good RPer Xeno are IFF tag Xeno (even Guard), maybe they can simply be grant by admin the Terrorist ID (or specific one). Theses players are responsibles, know the background and the goals. A request to get the ID and they become terrorists they should be. It will prevent the abuse, and stimulate (Xeno, Gaian, molly, GC, etc.) their RPing experience.
Free access and there will be abuse.

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"Perfection, honesty, devotion"
"Immortality is our subconscious main concern"
"To change the system, you have to be inside the system and play by the rules"

[Unseelie]

Outcasts are not Pirates. Corsairs are, yes, but it is a fallacy to expect Outcasts to balance Corsairs in that sense. Corsairs are pirates, because their entire culture is based upon bringing supplies they desperately need back to Crete: if you read their rumors, their first space vessel was a crashed Bee-One (I think) that they stole from the starving crew. Outcasts are not pirates at all, rather, a lost group. They have lived in hiding for hundreds of years, known mostly as a rumor, as something only partly human. Their networks are smuggling networks, and that is where there true power lies. Outcasts do not need steal anything, they are merchants. I'm not saying that there aren't outcasts who man a pirate vessel to produce their income, but that group falls under a generic pirate ID with an outcast Tag...They've left the traditional outcast economic structure, and set off on their own as pirates to make their fortune: The Corsairs are a pirate nation, the Outcasts are a culture of plantations and merchants.

As for Rheinland groups giving up, and becoming pirates, I cannot say I have any evidence in front of me, nor do I know Rheinland particularly well, but I hear this argument applied to all the other groups as well, and I think it stems from people's RP: you cannot under the current rules RP a gaian as a terrorist, so you say that you're gaian is a pirate to gain funds for the terrorists. the assumtion, then, is that Gaians are pirates, which is simply false, and a manifestation of the restrictions of the PC rule system altering how you view the group.

Disco has 2 groups: Pirates and lawfuls. The distinct and glaring problem with that statement, is that Lawful is a n umbrella term for anything not illegal, and yet Pirate is only a small facet of illegal, and so, there is no space for any other sort of criminal behavior.

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[chopper]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Corsairs are Pirates.
What I don't agree with is that Outcasts aren't.
They aren't Terrorists, in that I am certain.
As I said, there are 2 groups of them.
The ones that are truly fighting for Outcast goal (against Corsairs, and to smuggle Cardamine) and others who are simply supporting themselves trough pirating.
You can't say that they aren't Outcasts just because they don't follow a pattern.
It's like saying that some X guy isn't of Y nationality because he didn't go to war against Z nation.
There are Outcasts living in Liberty, they are earning for their lives by pirating convoys.
They are not earning trough Cardamine smuggling, as Omicrons are too far for them.
They are actually buying their own stuff, and they are buying it from Junkers/Rogues.

They don't have a good goal to be Terrorists either. Their goal is to control Sirius trough Cardamine, not to destroy it.

I agree Corsairs are more Pirates though, simply because they are rude and rough, simply said - grunts.
When you say a Corsair you simply think of a pirate saying : "Arghhh".

But, while Corsairs are Pirates, they are not simply Pirating.
They are smuggling artifacts, they are fighting the Nomads, they are fighting the Rheinland and Hessians.
War against a House isn't a small thing, and they fought it.
So, it's hard to limit them to simply "pirates".
Same for Outcasts.

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It is every Corsair's responsibility to die a beautiful death in defense of Crete, regardless of how OORP or how capwhoring the opposition is. Launch your fighter, joust the battlecruisers and die a beautiful death. Then, drink it down in the bar.

Can't let you bash folks in your sig Chopper-Del

[sovereign]

Mmkay, so Unioners are pirates too. Alrighty then, if someone could draft a replacement for my entry there that would be wonderful. And the discussion with Corsairs, while inconclusive, everyone can agree that they shouldn't get terrorist ID, right? Same with Outcasts?

I'm starting to think that they should get their own customized IDs, given their status as rogue nations that do a lot of stuff considered illegal everywhere else...

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