So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much?

[RedEclipse]

You are a LOL, phoenix shooting zoners and claims to be the owner of zoner's most important shipyard? Do you even listen to yourself? Bud, disco is about popularity, not justice, and so far Im doing good with justice.
Let me ask you a question, who is much more likely to break traffic, experienced driver or a new driver? Now, what did you say about "newbies"? Mind your own buisness Kishiro man.

Edit : Before hell goes loose, that last routine meant to attack the "osi" rp, ZA rp to OSI rp.. nope, not even on the same planet.

We're shooting in matter of self-defense, to prevent grown ZA for more lolbases with lolplatfroms. It's more funnier to log fighters instead of transports, thanks for diversity.

We're own this shipyard since disbandment of Omicroners. Since ZTC and Omicroners we've owned this system. It's logically we've decide to settle on our old HQ, isn't it?

You're still existed in 74 only because of OP new feature. As it'll be optimized, half of disco gladly get rid of you and your bases.

[Anaximander]

I see what you are saying, but on the other hand I don't feel it entirely accurate. Reavers are feared because of their ingame actions and skill, not because they have some forum story about being baddies.

Within reason of course. Reavers can't have New York. Rheinland is losing the war even though RNC kicks LNS to the curb. Etc.

But when someone builds 4 Core 4 bases in a system with no ownership and no pre-written guideline (like there is in the case of the Rheinland-Liberty war), I think it is fair to treat that as a roleplay event.

[Xelon]

The problem hereby is that with bases you don't have to be active ingame nor on the Forums, all you have to do is supply the base and watch that it can't die.

Building it is always risky yes, but when you have it at lvl4 there isn't much that can harm it.

Just saying, since I won't be picking a side, Zoners should be slaves of Bowex anyway and all stay put on their Freeports. 8|

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“This font is good people said, this font is awesome others said, I say it works well enough to waste 2 seconds of your life reading this.”

[Rodnas]

So where do you draw the line then? 3 bases wouldn't count? Are 2 already sufficient? How can the gaming of 2 players have an impact on a whole system when the actions of 10+ cannot? How can it be that bases that are set up by a inRP very small faction that couldn't even have the power to set up 2 bases can reasonably set up four, without any support from their peers while screwing over everyone?
InRP O74 is sealed from the outside, they have no friends left that could open up a corridor for them. The bases were set up oorply and are supplied oorply, thus their lifetime is oorp, too. They contribute nothing to the discovery RP server safe for bringing out the worst in people wherever you look- and while it might be unfair to blame it on the ZA alone i would whip out a nice 1.1, 1.5 and 6.9. hammer sprinkled with a bit of 2.1 for abusing game mechanics to achieve the former.
Kill off the bases, refund the guys so they can set up shop in an actual unclaimed system. And yes there is no guideline because few people would ahve thoguht that there are players that overstretch the limits by that margin. This situation is simply bad for the general server atmosphere- and within this atmosphere painfully obvious oorp actions should ahve absolutly zero influence on lore.

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Read about: The Benitez Familia and Trueno Benitez

---Not available for any disco stuff these days(and for an extended period of time to come, too ---

[Anaximander]

Well let me ask you this, would Corsair leadership have allowed some random person or group to put up 4 Core 4 bases in clear view in Gamma?

The fact that those 4 O74 bases are up goes to show that either the local Zoners approve, they are too inactive or they are unfit to rule. I think that is a totally fair assessment.

Besides I don't think it's fair to accredit the drama and "y u no rp" to ZA, I believe they could have been put down in-rp; and we could all have had a great Zoner roleplay war. Something good could have come out of it, we could have rolled with it, treated it as legitimate roleplay and acted accordingly within roleplay.

That's what I feel is so sad about this situation, and even though ZA might have planted the original seed of discord; it is the part of the community that goes all hysterical in their witch hunt that are truly to blame IMO. They escalated the conflict immensely; making it a nasty forum war with dumbass flood posts and stupid quotes bullying the ZA players, trying to score some cheap popularity points. I find it pretty despicable to be honest, no matter how "lolwutty" I happen to think ZA is.

I look at it as a test of the roleplay integrity of the players in this community, and most of us failed hard.

[Jinx]

1st

anaximander is quite right about the forum - the forum is there to support the game - not vice versa.

when you are a pvp ace, you can use the forum to explain your char - give it a background, motivation, - character...

but you cannot expect the forum to carry your char. - so if you write that you are an ace, - you cannot expect others to acknowledge you - unless you have the skills. - and the same applies to claims - political or military claims.

bretonia can claim omega3 - but that does not mean much if they cannot back it up INGAME
corsairs can claim theta - but it does not mean a thing if they cannot back it up ingame
zoners can claim manhattan - but it means squat if they cannot back it up ingame





about the hysteria - like many conflicts - it does not matter who started it anymore - players just think they get friends with the bully if they troll.

cause they fear to be enemies of the bully. - the very same players would side with the ZA if they had backup of the bully. kind of a mindless crowd - most of them does not even know the background of it all.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[GTB]

So where do you draw the line then? 3 bases wouldn't count? Are 2 already

sufficient? How can the gaming of 2 players have an impact on a whole system when the actions of 10+ cannot? How can it be that bases that are set up by a inRP very small faction that couldn't even have the power to set up 2 bases can reasonably set up four, without any support from their peers while screwing over everyone?
InRP O74 is sealed from the outside, they have no friends left that could open up a corridor for them. The bases were set up oorply and are supplied oorply, thus their lifetime is oorp, too. They contribute nothing to the discovery RP server safe for bringing out the worst in people wherever you look- and while it might be unfair to blame it on the ZA alone i would whip out a nice 1.1, 1.5 and 6.9. hammer sprinkled with a bit of 2.1 for abusing game mechanics to achieve the former.
Kill off the bases, refund the guys so they can set up shop in an actual unclaimed system. And yes there is no guideline because few people would ahve thoguht that there are players that overstretch the limits by that margin. This situation is simply bad for the general server atmosphere- and within this atmosphere painfully obvious oorp actions should ahve absolutly zero influence on lore.

I’m betting if you did that, you removed the ZA bases and refunded them back with cash. That may well end ZA as a faction on the server. No amount of money refunded back can repay the time they’ve invested building 4 bases up to Core 4 level. Don't underestimate people being TICKED OFF because you just removed months of their hard work put in, that they just up and leave.

And thinking they would re-build those bases again in another system is wishful thinking I’d say. You know what would most likely happen, those people who’s been trying to kill their 4 bases now at Core 4 and failed, would make any new ZA bases built in another system (starting at a lower level) an early target to take out next time around, because some of these people are base killing lolwuts who would jump to ALT char to do it. You can see that one happening right away!

It's sad, all this with ZA isn't about inRP anymore. It's all about removing their bases. Why remove their bases anyway, delete them. Why not leave them intact, but move them into another system - if they was willing to do something like that to end all this?

[Rodnas]

Well let me ask you this, would Corsair leadership have allowed some random person or group to put up 4 Core 4 bases in clear view in Gamma?

The fact that those 4 O74 bases are up goes to show that either the local Zoners approve, they are too inactive or they are unfit to rule. I think that is a totally fair assessment.

Besides I don't think it's fair to accredit the drama and "y u no rp" to ZA, I believe they could have been put down in-rp; and we could all have had a great Zoner roleplay war. Something good could have come out of it, we could have rolled with it, treated it as legitimate roleplay and acted accordingly within roleplay.

That's what I feel is so sad about this situation, and even though ZA might have planted the original seed of discord; it is the part of the community that goes all hysterical in their witch hunt that are truly to blame IMO. They escalated the conflict immensely; making it a nasty forum war with dumbass flood posts and stupid quotes bullying the ZA players, trying to score some cheap popularity points. I find it pretty despicable to be honest, no matter how "lolwutty" I happen to think ZA is.

I look at it as a test of the roleplay integrity of the players in this community, and most of us failed hard.

I completly agree with you -100 % correct - the problem is what do you do now? I seriously doubt that all of a sudden the lolwut,no rp, troll crowd or the now equally trolly za will get a sudden realization that they acted stupid no matter who started it and sort it out in a mature way. The community loves bullying and bandwagon jumping, but there are enogh that are simply happy if they can sow more discord and annoy others.
They won't wisen up, there won't be a rp rescue of the situation- even if some players still try to do so (kudos to them!). The community itself will lose no matter how the story ends, still we could try to migrate the damage...

@Jinx: i think it is a quite the difference between backing one single char or a complete faction. There is no way to back a faction ingame if it is bigger than 10-20 inRP members -and by all means you could always drive 10 caps in a system of a "dead" faction, erect a base and say "oh, no one stopped us, so we won" disco doesn't have the population to have "proper" and representative activity in any system, it simply doesn't work that way.
And the logic to presented that actions should be somehow sensible is superbly transferrable to the situation in 74 - one reality and logic check later and you will ahve no furhter rp reason why a teeny weeny faction should have claim to a system + 4 bases extra.
It was the oorp decision of the players that they wanted 4 bases, which is ok by all means but doesn't make it a sensible decision for rp either.

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Read about: The Benitez Familia and Trueno Benitez

---Not available for any disco stuff these days(and for an extended period of time to come, too ---

[Thyrzul]

And you still don't see what you are doing wrong?

I stated numerous times on what I base my version of the Zoner way. Not just simply on their semi-vague lore, but how players played their Zoner characters out, players who still do so to this day. Don't you think that if the Zoner way would consist elements of behavior not just unhelpful but actually harmful to their relations with their surroundings and along with that their efforts at survival, they would have gone extinct already way long ago? Counter my viewpoint with reasonable points of argument and we may talk about what I am doing wrong.

No, you haven't been getting what I say at all. I am saying there are more than one legitimate PoV, which is why you should be more open and not rest on that one PoV as if it was a higher truth. Nuance your PoV and stop being so categorical.

There may be other legitimate PoVs, but one ignoring the majority of the details of the relevant events is not a legitimate one in my opinion. And so far you did not present me any other one yet.

Do I think ZA is making a mess? Yes. Do I condone their jumphole base shooting at stuff? No. Have I been shooting ZA and friends? Yes. Do I think it's fair that they are getting this oorp forum treatment and get branded "heretics", when other people get off the hook for similar shanannigans? No, I don't.

As I said, ignoring important details will barely make your PoV legitimate. The case of ZA and TAZ are far from similar. I've pointed out the differences, if you haven't got them, I cannot help you.

I whined and got reimbursed in-rp, yes. You are saying your character got shot down, shrugged, and went and got a new ship npnp? That's some solid roleplay.

I did not feel to roleplay out the whole, because not just as the character, but as the player I did not feel the need to pointlessly beg for some change to repair my ship. But if you insist, I can pull out some RP about some kind of vehicle insurance out of my anus any time, not too hard.

There is no neutral standpoint when they are shooting at me for no reason whatsoever. They showed hostility, and I'm supposed to retaliate with neutrality? What's wrong with you?

Lol, missing my point entirely. Or just inRP and ooRP again. I don't ask your char to be neutral, I ask you, the player to look at the whole from a neutral, objective standpoint. Or do you want to stick to your ooRP hatred and grudges against TAZ, totally ignoring that this is just a game?

Ehh, I am a member of several factions; I applied to join one of the less active factions - as you know very well - but I am still waiting for reply. Your arrogance is strong when you assume things.

I can only assume based on what I see. Yes, I know you applied to GRN, dunno the reason behind the lack of reply, but don't forget that this doesn't apply to only you.

Read what Phoenix themselves say in this thread: They don't own O-74, neither inrp or oorp.

Guess what, neither does the ZA, yet they try to act like they could. And while O74 has no specific owner, Phoenix is still the Official Faction, inRP representing the Zoner NPC faction. Now ZA can pretty much say "go f-bomb yourselves" to Phoenix, simply because they have those shiny invincible bases.

You ever stopped to think that maybe the forum isn't representative at all for the players on the server? A lot of people can't be bothered going here, a lot of people can't be bothered commenting, and there is a certain dogmatic atmosphere that is hard to break. You shouldn't "invoke the power of the people" when it is something you cannot claim to have. Again, it is arrogance of 1st degree.

A lot of people can't be bothered to lift a finger to get something they want, a lot of people want to get everything for free. They are not forced to do so, but then who decides to come here will have way more possibilities at communication, interaction, gathering information or just developing a story. The forum is pretty much a representative too for the players who decide to roleplay on the forums too and not just on the server. Just because you do not agree with how things go on here, you won't have any rights to dismiss everything on the forums.

You won't get branded traitor. Look at the Corsair Court, look at how the Elders conduct business. You seem to neither have a clue about Corsairs as an NPC faction as well as Corsairs represented by the official factions (who do a damn fine job btw). The "when I say jump, you say how high" approach doesn't necessarily fit the bill for all Corsairs, like it does for say the Liberty Navy.

What you keep implying that I say Corsairs would follow their Elders blindly, regardless of how stupid the order is. That is barely the case, but in the same time I haven't seen any Elders order others to do utterly stupid things. Is the order "Don't shoot at that tin can!" legit? Highly doubtful for first. Is the order "Don't shoot at that tin can! We have more serious adversaries to concentrate on, reorganize assets on more important fronts!" legit? Oh, hey, now that makes waaaaaaay more sense, doesn't it?

Well let me ask you this, would Corsair leadership have allowed some random person or group to put up 4 Core 4 bases in clear view in Gamma?

Sure not, but then Corsairs are not Zoners. Again you compare incomparable entities while blatantly ignoring any differences between Zoners and Corsairs. How am I not surprised?

The fact that those 4 O74 bases are up goes to show that either the local Zoners approve, they are too inactive or they are unfit to rule. I think that is a totally fair assessment.

Local Zoners seem to have approved the existence of the stations, or were inactive. Local Zoners seem pretty much disapprove the usage of the stations, which again you tend to ignore while arguing about the responsibility of Phoenix, along with the fact that by then they were unable to do anything against those stations just like anybody trying to take them down nowadays.

Besides I don't think it's fair to accredit the drama and "y u no rp" to ZA, I believe they could have been put down in-rp; and we could all have had a great Zoner roleplay war. Something good could have come out of it, we could have rolled with it, treated it as legitimate roleplay and acted accordingly within roleplay.

Except it would have clashed with the very basis of roleplay on the server. Or what do you say who should have started the war? Phoenix, using Zoner ID, which states they cannot initiate combat, or ZA, using Zoner ID, which states they cannot initiate combat? Would it been a verbal war, each side spitting insults and petty remarks on the others until one of the sides get so much hurt emotionally that they leave the system or fall into depression?

That's what I feel is so sad about this situation, and even though ZA might have planted the original seed of discord; it is the part of the community that goes all hysterical in their witch hunt that are truly to blame IMO. They escalated the conflict immensely; making it a nasty forum war with dumbass flood posts and stupid quotes bullying the ZA players, trying to score some cheap popularity points. I find it pretty despicable to be honest, no matter how "lolwutty" I happen to think ZA is.

The "witch hunt" is going on because ZA did not just plant the original seed, but still keep feeding the hatred they caused against themselves. The basic rule is the rule of action-reaction, ZA keep behaving the way they did and do, the community will treat them as it did and do ,and vice versa. Good luck convincing any sides that they are the wrong.

but you cannot expect the forum to carry your char. - so if you write that you are an ace, - you cannot expect others to acknowledge you - unless you have the skills. - and the same applies to claims - political or military claims.

I roleplay one of my characters as a (in my opinion) good diplomat, and act as such within comm transmissions and forum RP meetings. How good my character is at diplomacy, let the readers decide, but the forum can pretty much carry my char with this.

Political or military claims are based on things which cannot be properly represented in-game, and that is what we have our dear lore for. Lore is that GRN stomps over Bretonia, which is happening and will continue to happen with the conquest of Leeds in the next version, regardless of how skilled the random GRN pilot or cap commander is.

bretonia can claim omega3 - but that does not mean much if they cannot back it up INGAME
corsairs can claim theta - but it does not mean a thing if they cannot back it up ingame
zoners can claim manhattan - but it means squat if they cannot back it up ingame

GRN claims whole Bretonia, from this they so far got Orkney, Lewis, Edinburgh, will have Leeds too, partly, and without the need to enforce their claims in these particular systems in-game.

cause they fear to be enemies of the bully. - the very same players would side with the ZA if they had backup of the bully. kind of a mindless crowd - most of them does not even know the background of it all.

Lol, you imply the community is full of sheep. I do not consider myself as such, as I decided to disagree with ZA's actions based on their decisions, their actions, their words, and how they relate to their surroundings.

I’m betting if you did that, you removed the ZA bases and refunded them back with cash. That may well end ZA as a faction on the server. No amount of money refunded back can repay the time they’ve invested building 4 bases up to Core 4 level. Don't underestimate people being TICKED OFF because you just removed months of their hard work put in, that they just up and leave.

That months of hard work could happily live where it is in peace without anybody getting bothered by them if the ZA would have used the fruit of their months of hard work properly. You can argue with the police when they take away your neat bow you made over weeks or months (no actual clue about how much it takes to make a decent bow) and then shot a man with it, you still misused the bow, regardless of how much effort you put into it's creation.

And thinking they would re-build those bases again in another system is wishful thinking I’d say. You know what would most likely happen, those people who’s been trying to kill their 4 bases now at Core 4 and failed, would make any new ZA bases built in another system (starting at a lower level) an early target to take out next time around, because some of these people are base killing lolwuts who would jump to ALT char to do it. You can see that one happening right away!

You mentioning base killing lolwuts reminded me of the lollegates rampaging around Sirius popping bases seemingly randomly. They actually hail the ZA, and they just don't attack their bases, rather the bases of their enemies. Now which side are we talking about here?

It's sad, all this with ZA isn't about inRP anymore. It's all about removing their bases. Why remove their bases anyway, delete them. Why not leave them intact, but move them into another system - if they was willing to do something like that to end all this?

It is still inRP to remove their bases with the only exception that due to game mechanics, it is impossible to do so externally by regular means.

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[Treewyrm]

I think folks who keep paddling 'can't be backed up in game' mantra in regards to lore is missing one simple yet crucial element: if the faction has NPCs then players are but a fracture of it. Hence the lore that addresses the issue that there is simply not enough players to fully represent big 'parent NPC' factions and it's technically impossible too. A small mercenary group/mini-faction can be represented at it's whole by its players, but it doesn't work for anything larger than that, especially the ones with multiple systems, bases and infrastructure.