So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much?

[Jack_Henderson]

You guys must be halluzinating to think ZA (or: any base owner that is sane) would give you a PW, give you a base, dismantle a base, destroy a single turret because you want him to do it... you have to arrive in the reality, even though you hate it.

If you want peace, you have to TALK. T-A-L-K.

Terms they will likely agree are:

> NFZ need to go. => it doesn't work anyway and only makes Zoner players oppose the anti-ZA course.
> Set the guns to Zoner IFF => reasonable defense against the Nomads.
> Order caps vanish from the system. => they are aggressors, also against Zoners
> AI caps vanish, too. => they are aggressors, also against Zoners
> ZA have to be included into the solution and the new rp in O74. => coexistence should be possible, you don't have to marry each other
> Zoner officials take it as their task to police the peace process. => Would be a cool task for Phoenix. Not as the self-proclaimed boss, but as the mediator that fixes it after the mess just got too much.

Removal of the main driving forces of this conflict is imperative as they are the reason for the bases to be set to hostile. Frequent and blatant abuse of game mechanics on the side of the attackers would have made me switch the bases to fully red, too. Gtfo the attackers, and make a deal.

If anybody is interested in starting an oorp dialogue as a basis of irp solutions, I am all up for this. If ZA wants to get into contact with me, add kuscheliger_schmusehase to Skype. I firmly believe this can work.

If you think they are unreliable... okay. Then you have to deal with an unreliable party. Like politics... in reality.

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[Highland Laddie]

The "didn't appear over-night" part has been explained already, during construction the ZA did not seem to be hostile, the first issues came with usage, not construction, and by then they had all their bases at Core4.

Again...this is not a problem with PoBs, Disco rules, or game mechanics, but just shows a lack of forward thinking by the ones who had power to prevent this present situation from happening, but did nothing instead. To say you COULD NOT, seems a lame excuse and an afterthought (as well as ignoring games rules that WERE in place to allow such actions). That you DID not is what matters.

And I'm 100% in agreement with Jack.

[Jinx]

what jack proposes are reasonable and good terms - and everyone should agree and adhere to it

that would end the crap - and for the first time - players would have de-escalated the crap they created without admin intervention.

now i do wonder if everyone would agree to it.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Zen_Mechanics]

I can tell the ZA will, having talking with them here and there, thats what they always wanted, the only reason why its still "there" its because other factions entitle to set preconditions. However, I reckon this is a test for the official buds up there.

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Were fools to make war on our brothers in arms.

[Thyrzul]

If you want peace, you have to TALK. T-A-L-K.

This pretty much happened, where have you been in the past few weeks when Comm Channels got flooded with all the ZA stuff? To have an agreement of peace you need two parties to agree and ZA denied peace regardless of the terms any time the other side offered them that. What makes you think that after this ZA can be considered serious with their claims of wishing peace, and it is not an other attempt to backstab Order like they just tried to backstab the official Zoner factions with their newest series of powergaming attempts? As you see, ZA abused the trust of the rest of the Zoners, what makes you think they won't abuse the trust of their adversaries when they agree upon peace just because this time ZA wants it too? Why didn't they want it earlier then?

Terms they will likely agree are:

> Set the guns to Zoner IFF => reasonable defense against the Nomads.

You could just have read the comment of Zoner-Trader about this somewhere in this thread earlier and how much he is concerned about this could be abused... like he haven't abused anything yet or gave no reason to be shot on sight yet...

> AI caps vanish, too. => they are aggressors, also against Zoners

All Zoner caps have the right to be present in O74, including Phoenix, ZA and other Zoner caps. Besides Livadia is a shipyard, good luck having ships outside of the system which are actually being completed in there. This point is stupid.

> ZA have to be included into the solution and the new rp in O74. => coexistence should be possible, you don't have to marry each other

Do you really think this whole mess would have evolved into what it is now if the ZA would have been cooperative? Just because they fake being such doesn't change anything, they compromised themselves already, nobody opposing them will trust them anymore, at least inRP for sure.

> Zoner officials take it as their task to police the peace process. => Would be a cool task for Phoenix. Not as the self-proclaimed boss, but as the mediator that fixes it after the mess just got too much.

It would be good to see and I bet the Phoenix would be able to accomplish that, but then you've seen too, our dear friend Tel-Aviv has stated clearly (while not having to do anything with ZA of course), that ZA does not trust Phoenix either and will not do so in the near future.

Removal of the main driving forces of this conflict is imperative as they are the reason for the bases to be set to hostile. Frequent and blatant abuse of game mechanics on the side of the attackers would have made me switch the bases to fully red, too. Gtfo the attackers, and make a deal.

You shouldn't neglect the fact that ZA exploiting the technical invincibility of their stations could pretty much be the definition of abuse of game mechanics in a Disco Dictionary. If we are looking at abusers, look for them on both sides, please, or one may catch us for having double standards, maybe even bias, and that wouldn't be too healthy, right?

If anybody is interesting in starting an oorp dialogue as a basis of irp solutions, I am all up for this. If ZA wants to get into contact with me, add kuscheliger_schmusehase to Skype. I firmly believe this can work.

I promote the idea but, however I may not entirely be familiar with all the ooRP comms between the sides, I've heard rumors from here and there that even such comms failed to have any result moving this situation forward. Such results need clarification of course.

Again...this is not a problem with PoBs, Disco rules, or game mechanics, but just shows a lack of forward thinking by the ones who had power to prevent this present situation from happening, but did nothing instead. To say you COULD NOT, seems a lame excuse and an afterthought (as well as ignoring games rules that WERE in place to allow such actions). That you DID not is what matters.

Okay, good luck having a reason to prevent a seemingly friendly bunch of indies to build a ton of bases in order to defend themselves from common attackers, claiming the bases has no other uses and hurt nobody else. Good luck thinking about what could go wrong without having a precedent of a worst-case-scenario to learn from.

It is too easy to be clever after you know everything. Try to be clever from all the knowledge they may had at that point they could do anything and you may realize that at that time they had no reason to act as ZA gave none.

Again, the problems came later, when they were beyond prevention, what is so hard in understanding this? It's like AIDS, you can carry it in your body for over a decade before it even giving a sign of it's existence, and even then it will already start to kill you and you can't do crap against it.

I can tell the ZA will, having talking with them here and there, thats what they always wanted, the only reason why its still "there" its because other factions entitle to set preconditions. However, I reckon this is a test for the official buds up there.

Oh seems I got ninja'd here and you guys may really want to have peace. But why is it that the minority dictates the terms? And how comes this will turn out to be a test for the officials? What do they have to prove they haven't already with actions, behavior and quality roleplay they earned their officialdom with? This looks odd, too twisted, like the professors at universities should write the exams the students put in front of them. How come who have already proven have to prove instead of the one who proven nothing yet... oh wait, ZA actually proven one thing very much: they can cause huge crapstorm with exploiting game mechanics as much as possible and as nobody did before them yet. Quite an accomplishment, yes, massive kudos for that.

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[Mercarryn]

Well, there I was, setting up an answer to Jack's and Jinx's post, but tbh, Thyr just already wrote down what I wanted to do.
Seriously, now with their latest stunt, pulling all 3 Zoner offiicals into the dirt by powergaming ist another evidence, although I have to admit, a smart one.
Actually, I somehow saw this one coming, should have bet a nice sum on such.

Well, oorp mess has happened on both sides for sure , but if you want to know who started that, then have a look at ZA please.

[GTB]

Let's not forget when you talk about POB shooting people run by Zoner Indies. Wasn't that long ago a certain base in Baffin situated near a JH was shooting players indiscriminately, and did for a long time before eventually disabled. And guess what, that base was run by an official Zoner faction. My point being, no matter who owns those base, be them Indies or Official faction members. You don't know if they will be run better.

Also, what's stopping people from using anon ALT char to hide behind shooting those bases in O74 in-game, until ZA put the bases turrets back on-line again. Then coming on forums complaining and blaming ZA for it being ooRP? When it could very well be people doing it on purpose playing games to drag things on, don't need to spell out what factions could be doing that.

[Thyrzul]

Let's not forget when you talk about POB shooting people run by Zoner Indies. Wasn't that long ago a certain base in Baffin situated near a JH was shooting players, and it did for a long time before disabled. And guess what, that base was run by an official Zoner faction.

The vast difference between the two cases has been discussed several times already, for more information look up the conversations of Anaximander and myself, or send me a PM, however with the latter option I could only grant you my explanation only.

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[Duvelske]

Let's not forget when you talk about POB shooting people run by Zoner Indies. Wasn't that long ago a certain base in Baffin situated near a JH was shooting players, and it did for a long time before disabled. And guess what, that base was run by an official Zoner faction.

I cannot leave to respond on this one. But the base was owned by Gypsie. Some people where invading baffin and just tried to make a damn mess out there. Due to the lack of game mechanics. (an hostile list for example) these 2 could not be the only target. At that time also others did assist them. So he decided to add EVERYONE on the docking list. That list was so HUGE that if you wanted to see it all you needed to look into the logs of your chat. otherwise you couldn't see it. Ok his approach was rather drastic, but it was needed at that time.

When he took a break of disco he gave me his accounts to keep alive. Also he asked me if i would watch over the Freeport. In a way i have failed both requests.. But that is something else.. When I had to watch over the Freeport i did decide that it was enough. The mess was over and others did not need to suffer from what others in the past did. So I gave it zoner iff. and then the shooting ended. As it also had no reason to be hostile anymore nor inRP or ooRP. (also ooRP the bases turrets where never used. Even K'Hara, Wilde and the Iseijin could freely pass it without being shot.. That was due to the RP with Doc holliday.)

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[Jack_Henderson]

This pretty much happened, where have you been in the past few weeks when Comm Channels got flooded with all the ZA stuff?

The talk I am talking about is a respectful one on one conversation in Skype. With a small group and mediators to keep things calm. Forums are not fit for this and we know how discussions end there.

What makes you think that after this ZA can be considered serious with their claims of wishing peace [...]

You cannot be sure. But if you do not try, you will never know.

[...] concerned about this could be abused... like he haven't abused anything yet or gave no reason to be shot on sight yet...

He was right. The base settings "neutral, only defend when shot at" is also abused big time. I saw the AI Cruisers all sport Zoner IFFs, and I am pretty sure they did it to camp the bases when the bases were Zoner IFF.

Action - reaction - action - reaction... vicious circle. Wanna break it?

]All Zoner caps have the right to be present in O74

I was thinking and writing "AI", not "All". AI like in Artificial Intelligence toasters. They are the main body of base campers at the moment. Of course Zoner caps can be there. No reason why not. But the foreign caps need to go. All of them.

[...] nobody opposing them will trust them anymore, at least inRP for sure.

If you cannot trust to at least start reasonable talks, you can only go on doing what you are doing now. Wasting time on an impossible goal, and letting things slide further down. It's not getting better, that's for sure.

[...] our dear friend Tel-Aviv has stated clearly (while not having to do anything with ZA of course), that ZA does not trust Phoenix either and will not do so in the near future.

What Tel says and thinks in this issue is irrelevant. In an earnest attempt to talk he would not even appear.

You shouldn't neglect the fact that ZA exploiting the technical invincibility of their stations could pretty much be the definition of abuse of game mechanics in a Disco Dictionary.

That's only your personal pov, not a universal one, actually.

Well, oorp mess has happened on both sides for sure , but if you want to know who started that, then have a look at ZA please.

The "who started it" question is also rather irrelevant if you want to solve it, actually. It also reminds me of my job. You approach quarrelling kids, the first things they to is: point at each other. "It was him!"

Seriously, now with their latest stunt, pulling all 3 Zoner offiicals into the dirt by powergaming ist another evidence, although I have to admit, a smart one.

It will be ignored, come on. Don't freak out. Work your Skype connections and make it disappear. Nothing is going to happen in the current anti-ZA atmosphere.

On the contrary: look at it as a good trigger to finally get serious about ending the mess. No one wants to get seriously harmed, do they? And, just as my personal view, it does not qualify as powergaming, at least not in my definition of the term.

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