So hey, about the recent Zoner drama. Use it much?

[Syf]

I don't know the tids and bits I might be missing but to me, I really agree more with Jack rather than either side in this ludicrous case... It's starting to be like a cancer almost... Never getting into an agreement and just continuing this bogus fingerpointing is beyond me. I highly doubt admins need to be dragged into this.

And especially the PoB in Baffin... Worst reference possible.

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Inferno wuz here.

[Thyrzul]

The talk I am talking about is a respectful one on one conversation in Skype. With a small group and mediators to keep things calm. Forums are not fit for this and we know how discussions end there.

Still not sure and I don't know what difference would be between a forum discussion and a skype discussion, other than the latter being private, they are both ooRP and we have already seen how certain people reflect on the situation ooRPly.

You cannot be sure. But if you do not try, you will never know.

Lol, like nobody has tried yet... yea, try, get rejected, try, get rejected, try, get rejected... don't you think people are intelligent enough to realize if somebody doesn't want to cooperate for the first, second, third, fourth time, they won't want to cooperate the hundredth time either?

He was right. The base settings "neutral, only defend when shot at" is also abused big time. I saw the AI Cruisers all sport Zoner IFFs, and I am pretty sure they did it to camp the bases when the bases were Zoner IFF.

True, I did not say the opposite. The exploitation of the station IFF is also a bad move, but then that happens if the base owners, who are hostile to the attackers, use the same ID and IFF as the allies of the attackers. You can't really do much about it, can you?

Action - reaction - action - reaction... vicious circle. Wanna break it?

Hell yes. Haven't we been discussing ideas to break it so far?

But the foreign caps need to go. All of them.

Could be a reasonable term of negotiation on short terms, but on longer terms this could hinder the cooperation of Zoners and the Order later on for example, and I also doubt the Order would want to let an other splinter group pull the same nomnom material stunt the ZA conducted (let alone them trying the same another time), and the local Zoners will most probably allow them to operate, as nomad related stuff are their domain.

Again, this point could serve good until things cool down.

If you cannot trust to at least start reasonable talks, you can only go on doing what you are doing now. Wasting time on an impossible goal, and letting things slide further down. It's not getting better, that's for sure.

And you can thank to the uncooperative party that the mutual mistrust evolved to this level. The goal is only impossible due to a feature in game mechanics hopefully changing in the future.

That's only your personal pov, not a universal one, actually.

That is the PoV of quite many on these forums, otherwise you wouldn't see multiple threads about seeking solution to this potential exploit. And the actions of ZA speak for itself, actually.

The "who started it" question is also rather irrelevant if you want to solve it, actually. It also reminds me of my job. You approach quarrelling kids, the first things they to is: point at each other. "It was him!"

It might be irrelevant ooRP but it can quite easily be relevant inRP, and while both parties might want to solve this mess already, inRP the stronger side should dictate the terms and conditions of a peace treaty to the weaker side. And we all know which sides are which. I stress the word inRP, the number of PoBs are hardly a deciding factor in it. Lore is.

It will be ignored, come on. Don't freak out. Work your Skype connections and make it disappear. Nothing is going to happen in the current anti-ZA atmosphere.

Lol, are you promoting the so called skypelancer, hm?

From an inRP viewpoint, it looks weird. Why would the houses just simply ignore information and evidence about factions they were believing to be neutral are actually collaborating with terrorists? It is indeed expected from the house authorities to take a note of it and it can crush the neutrality of said factions easily, effectively going against lore. Such powergaming attempts of this degree (endangering lore) has been shut down in the past, precedent could be the example of SMI trying to sell out the location of Roussillon to the GRN, twice, got stopped by mods/admins both times. I expect the same here, but I wouldn't be surprised that it would indeed be ignored, as you said.

On the contrary: look at it as a good trigger to finally get serious about ending the mess. No one wants to get seriously harmed, do they? And, just as my personal view, it does not qualify as powergaming, at least not in my definition of the term.

ZA seem to want to get seriously harmed, at least their actions so far communicated quite that.

Oh, and in my personal view, it does, and I even got precedent to back up my personal view.

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[GTB]

And you can thank to the uncooperative party that the mutual mistrust evolved to this level. The goal is only impossible due to a feature in game mechanics hopefully changing in the future.

What exactly are ZA being asked to agree with though? It's OK saying they are being "uncooperative", but a lot does depend on what? We've already heard it mentioned ZA have been asked to possibly hand their bases over, along with dismantling their base turrets. Are we talking about them being uncooperative over that?

By the way, have you read this statement in that other ZA thread?

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The Alliance will not give up all that make us who we are, we will not dismantle our work, however we will effectivly use it for the benefit of all of us, therefore we are hereby neutralising the stations and setting them to Zoner IFF.

[Thyrzul]

What exactly are ZA being asked to agree with though? It's OK saying they are being "uncooperative", but a lot does depend on what? We've already heard it mentioned ZA have been asked to possibly hand their bases over, along with dismantling their base turrets. Are we talking about them being uncooperative over that?

Not just that, by my knowledge they were also uncooperative over things people are actually recommend lately, either that or failing to adhere to their own word for more than mere weeks. One case I know is that once they were told to reset their platforms to not to shoot all. Now after all of this I am unsure about whether they disagreed with this, or agreed, done so, but then set them back to hostile-shoot-all after like two weeks. Order, 141 and Phoenix guys are the more expert in such details however.

For sure, the demands of the assaulting side did not start high up at dismantling the platforms/bases, and the noncooperation of ZA did not start at these kinds of high demands.

Also, what I don't see being mentioned anywhere in the latest pages is that ZA also approached Phoenix with an utterly ridiculous demand, they demanded them to hand over Livadia. Is that a reasonable demand in their state? Is that a sign of cooperation?

Again, when looking for mistakes, look for them on both sides.

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[Jack_Henderson]

Just don't see the hair in the soup, but the tasty soup for a moment.
Progress is being made.

The Alliance will not give up all that make us who we are, we will not dismantle our work, however we will effectivly use it for the benefit of all of us, therefore we are hereby neutralising the stations and setting them to Zoner IFF.

That's reasonable and makes sense irp.
GTB, you got forum PM.
And I would really appreciate a Skype contact of ZA leader(s).
I think it is a good point in time to talk.

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[Thyrzul]

Interesting. Makes sense, of course, that was not even the initial problem. What was that they farmed nomads and kept doing so when told by Order not to, instead they refused to abide by a directive all other Zoners agreed upon months prior to the first incident. If they repeat their mistakes, they will most probably face the same consequences, eventually ruining their reputation with their surroundings permanently. I hope this can be quite a deterrent consequence for ZA to consider.

This new move is interesting, but I rather take it with skepticism. A peace treaty would come handy at this moment, but that shouldn't of course make the ZA think they can have war and peace anytime they say so, that's not how it works. Whatever the answer of the other parties might be, they should keep this in mind.

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[GTB]

I got your PM and sent a reply back. I have no links with ZA faction what-so-ever playing on server, I'm just interested in what's going on between them all, nothing more.

[Jack_Henderson]

All the problems can be solved step by step once useful means of communication have been established.

So... what I need is Skype contact of ZA leader, pls!

Voicing your skepticims and pointing the finger at them every time is not helpful. That's why forums are useless for something like this. There will always be a Thyr who can make every progress look like it was worthless.

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[Quiron]

It will be ignored, come on. Don't freak out. Work your Skype connections and make it disappear. Nothing is going to happen in the current anti-ZA atmosphere.

Why should it be ignored? It is a huge diplomatic attack against the major Zoner groups definitely to make things even worse. Endangering the Zoner diplomacy in a whole. So when they are doing something bad, it should be ignored now? They don't have to face the consequences of their inRP decisions? And after that they are making an announcement how good guys they are neutralizing their stations. Kudos to them, really.

I have a feeling that defending ZA and making them martyrs slowly become a fashion amongst some people who doesn't know this whole situation deeply or make conclusions with half-informations, while the opposition parties turned into the evil aggressors who love to bully the poor, peaceful and decent ZA.

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[Highland Laddie]

Why should it be ignored? It is a huge diplomatic attack against the major Zoner groups definitely to make things even worse. Endangering the Zoner diplomacy in a whole. So when they are doing something bad, it should be ignored now? They don't have to face the consequences of their inRP decisions? And after that they are making an announcement how good guys they are neutralizing their stations. Kudos to them, really.

I have a feeling that defending ZA and making them martyrs slowly become a fashion amongst some people who doesn't know this whole situation deeply or make conclusions with half-informations, while the opposition parties turned into the evil aggressors who love to bully the poor, peaceful and decent ZA.

That, sir, is called good PR. You make yourself look good, and you make your opponents look bad. Turn those letters around and that spells RP - exactly what everybody wanted, right? And I don't have to be an expert on Zoners and Zoner lore to see that you people seriously screwed yourselves up, both inRP and ooRP, and the rest of server is paying the price.

Now, if you want to take your RP to the next level besides pointing fingers and whining about each other on forums, I suggest you take Jack's advice and actually talk (I would add, LISTEN as well) to one another. Don't go into a negotiation expecting to get everything you want. You make your demands known, and then you see what the other side wants. If you can reach a reasonable middle ground, then that's where you begin the negotiation. You don't throw out an ultimatum and then say "oh well we tried," especially if you're not actually capable of following through with your threats (which you're apparently not in-game).

Make us all proud and try to take care of this as civilized people instead of adolescents.