Zoners

[Trogdor]

2) It's way too close to the Corsairs.

And what is the exact problem with having a neighbour? Where is ANY profit from claiming patch of space as your own when you have no one to trade with? Those Zoners would quickly starve to death without solid economy.

Because it's the source of our capital ships, and we're not allies. We're not even particularly friendly. We have had conflicts with the Sairs many times, and while that is going on, having our guard system right next to their home feels quite ridiculous.

Two more things. One, Zoners on those stations don't have much of an economy. Especially not Corinth, what with it being in the middle of a minefield. They rely on financial support from the rest of the Zoners sirius-wide; They are not trade outposts and cannot support themselves without cooperation.
Two,

3) It's illogical that we would have built our research facility and shipyard in a system that's going to see so much foreign traffic.

I guess entire system was meant as shortcut/trade hub since the beggining.

Okay, that's fine. That doesn't change the fact that we don't want everybody and their grandma coming near our most strategically important stations. Guard systems are supposed to be private, not the town bicycle. If that system was meant for foreign traffic, it should not be our guard system.

4) The main jumphole is right next to freeport 9. everythingwentbetterthanexpected.jpg

It's not an issue to move it.

5) That minefield offends my sensibilities. I don't like the cut of its jib one bit. It's enough of a stretch to think that we can build Livadia and Corinth. But we have this enormous minefield with this zigzag entrance, and then on top of that we have an extra station inside just to protect Corinth.

Simplifying it is not a problem either.

I never said these were difficult issues to fix, only that they were factors that made O-74 seem artificial/contrived. The main reason for moving the Zoners to another part of Sirius was to deal with the aforementioned traffic and proximity problems.

http://discoverygc.com/wiki/Phoenix would like a word with you.

I AM member of the Phoenix.

Then why are you arguing against an idea that helps you guys fulfill your primary goal?

I'm sorry Omicron, but the people who play Zoner as their primary faction want to do other things besides trade. That 'making sure diplomatically none of the great players smash them' thing? It gets stale really quick. The status quo is that nothing happens, because there is no conflict. Then someone does something to shake things up, so that diplomacy is required again, and the community calls them lolwutty bad Zoners. It's infuriating.

So unless you have something constructive to add in regards to how we can grow as a faction, kindly go back to worrying about the Order. Thanks.

You have chosen the wrong faction. Zoners are not warmongers you want them to be. ENTIRE lore states Zoners are not meant to wage wars against anyone, anywhere, anytime. Stop compromiting yourself.

Where did I say anything that implicates I want them to be warmongers? Anyway, you just proved my point. You have a very specific and limited concept of exactly what the Zoners are supposed to be, and anybody who dares do anything else is wrong. If you put as much time, and effort, and love into your Zoner as you put into your Order, I bet you would feel differently.

Tel, the Zoners are not a nation, house, whatever. They never have been, and never will be. The minute they become one, they cease to be Zoners.

On what do you base this argument, Kaz? All we know is that the Zoners don't want to live in the houses that currently exist. Who's to say they can't establish one of their own, and run it differently?
Who's to say that if the Zoners expanded a bit more, grew their population, they would not have the foundation of a house-grade economy?

That is what I push for when I propose a Zoner 'house'. A group of Zoners stake a claim in some system that is far enough away to not border another group, but not so far away that they cannot trade with their neighbors. They carve out a piece of Sirius for themselves. They don't warmonger, they don't go declaring war on anyone, but neither do they tolerate anyone attempting to annex or claim their system as a 'protectorate'. They would establish a loosely-governed society based on personal freedom, and ideally, colonize a planet so they have room for their numbers to grow. And preferably, it would be in the Omegas rather than the Omicrons, because it's within trade distance of house space, and there's less Nomads there.

Conflicts would come from piracy/raids (pirates in the area not being too happy about the Zoners growing) as well as the proximity/alliance with the RoS (if this revives them, that's a bonus). Traders would be more likely to find escorts if they're starting off in a system that becomes considered the 'Home' of the Zoners, even if it's really just the home of an otherwise ordinary group of Zoners.

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[RedEclipse]

Treewyrm, Order nor BHG ain't Zoner militia, so they have to defend themselves when needed. If you don't like part that Zoners have capital ships because it's disco, deal with it. Not everyone sharing our view on the Nomads as threat of humanity - But, Phoenix has strong relationship with the Order, so our chances for survival in deep Omicrons are much higher - originally for the years we had same policy on this matter. Also, that's why Phoenix Spaceport in Zeta was built(POB).

As for moving system - I've said just an simple example, how we would like to see it's running. 74 is already "buffer" system and always been, since it's former guard system. So if it'll be moved in between of Zeta and Delta I don't see a big difference. If it'll be a deadlock system with 1 jumphole, I'm cool with it too(take the spot of the Lost).

As for Nomads in 74. I think they are should be present in 74, just like in Gamma, nearby of Kappa hole.

[Syrus]

The more people say that Zoners have capitals because of "defending themselves", the more I feel like they need to be removed. Especially when people say "deal with it".

Omicrons need a major redoing, probably back to somewhat like .85, but even that situation wasn't perfect. But I guess it's not just Omicrons that need to be redone...

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[RedEclipse]

Zoners caps is not only one who's got illogical sense to be in the mod, to be honest. We already offered a solution to solve this problem to admins/devs but it's not seems to be possible for them.

Zoners caps should be rare, and it's boredom of flying Zoner cap doing work perfectly. Btw, colony ships in vanilla intro killed few cruisers before to run. So point of having defenseless colony ships is a bit invalid, even by adorable vanilla lore.

[Trogdor]

The more people say that Zoners have capitals because of "defending themselves", the more I feel like they need to be removed. Especially when people say "deal with it".

The more I hear arguments like these, the more I feel like certain individuals just want the Zoners to be a boring trade faction. Stop peeing in our cereal!
Like I said, roleplaying diplomacy only lasts a little while. Then everything stays stagnant, unless someone does something to upset the balance, and then they get belittled, and we adjust things back to the status quo over the next week or two. And then we're back where we started. What else do you do?

We need conflict to drive activity.

Zoners caps is not only one who's got illogical sense to be in the mod, to be honest. We already offered a solution to solve this problem to admins/devs but it's not seems to be possible for them.

Zoners caps should be rare, and it's boredom of flying Zoner cap doing it's work. Btw, colony ships in vanilla intro killed few cruisers before to run.

They're only a problem (and I use the term loosely - they're not really a problem) because of aforementioned boredom. If you give them a system to defend, and encourage others to attack it, maybe you won't see so many floating around places they shouldn't be, looking for something to do.

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[Haste]

They're only a problem (and I use the term loosely - they're not really a problem) because of aforementioned boredom. If you give them a system to defend, and encourage others to attack it, maybe you won't see so many floating around places they shouldn't be, looking for something to do.

..What?

Okay. Let me get this straight. Your goal is to have Zoners, who escaped / fled / ran away from the Houses / governing bodies to get some "peace and quiet", live in some sort of highly contested space with loads of enemies attacking that space, so that they can use their capital ships that they shouldn't ever have had?

Okay, Trogdor. Okay.

Edit: Also..

What else do you do?

Roleplay? You know, come up with a purpose for your character that isn't "engagebugen all red i c"?

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[Syrus]

Corinth
Freeport 15
Livadia Shipyard
(Pueblo Bonito)
(Sedona Station)
Ames Research Sation
Bethlehem Station
Boa Vista Station
Cofu Base
Freeport 1
Freeport 2
Freeport 5
Freeport 6
Freeport 9
Freeport 10
Freeport 11
Freeport 14
Lanzarote Base
Planet Gran Canaria
Porto Novo
(Shasta Orbital Skyhook)

Zoner Carrier
Zoner Cruiser
Zoner Destroyer
Zoner Gunboat
Zoner Dreadnought
Zoner Whale
Osprey

Please tell me how a group or a few groups of people with the same idea went from having a few bases in the outer reaches of Sirius because they wished to be left alone to a faction having a crap ton of bases. A faction which didn't even use transports in vanilla to a faction which has ships larger than what the most megalomaniacal house builds. And also explain to me how they did that. Where they get the ressources to build and support them, where the technology, knowledge, ... And tell me why a neighbour faction like the OC or Corsairs would not consider that a rise in threat, considering that in vanilla lore both already looked onto the Zoners as becoming a threat due to "the BHG becoming the defense force of the Zoners" and launching from the Freeports mostly (YES, they were around as kind of the proctetion for Zoners). Please explain to me how they build all the bases. And even more, explain to me why Bretonia would not have settled on a planet right next door to their house, when it was perfectly well habitable. And how the Zoners reproductive system works, because that's a hell of a lot of small Zoners that had to be popped out to produce that population on Gran Canaria in a very short time. I'd say that rivals rabbits...

Not to mention, when did the Zoners suddenly turn away from their "we do our own thing"-small group stuff?
My problem is, that I just don't feel like Zoners are Zoners anymore. They've gone away from their original RP. People now complain about there being changes suggested because they turned that faction's RP away towards their own goals. Mostly because they couldn't fly what they wanted to fly in any other faction without breaking their RP completly. A neutral RP from the Zoners offers a lot of options, but the original thing the Zoners were doing doesn't. That change in RP was ignored though, because of course it is not forbidden in the rules (and shouldn't be forbidden), unlike for example turning a Corsair ID'd faction into a friend with the Outcasts. Just over time the whole faction was perceived completly differently. When I started here in .85 Zoners were still accepted as the neutral party, flying a small Zoner transport in house space often meant pirates would spare you because they knew you were neutral. I don't feel that that neutrality is still around as it should be...

But hey, overall I can't tell you how to play the faction, I just can tell you how little sense it makes for the faction to have all the stuff it got. And yes, there might be other non-sensical stuff besides the Zoners, but seriously, if you don't look at Gallia, they are the worst - if not by far.

And don't get me wrong, I played a Zoner for quite a long time. Even had a cruiser for some time, until I realized how it makes no sense. Then I stuck with my transport, which went from being a 5k to being a 4.5k to a 4.3k and somewhat later being a 3k transport. Because that makes most sense, small transport for a small group of people doing their thing.

Oh well, do your thing, I have long given up on the Zoners as a faction for me...as a bit less longer but by now still long given up on the Omicrons overall, sadly. There were some great things that happened when I started there, nice RP and all. But by the time I stopped playing there so many "bad things" happened around there that it even made me not want to play anymore for some time...

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[Thyrzul]

Zoner Neutrality is one god damn fragile b*cough* well, you get it. Diplomacy is not the only thing to keep it intact. The moment you become a significant power, and a potential threat to the houses, no matter how diplomatic you are, you will lose it. Houses will no more consider you a bunch of hermits called Zoners as soon as you concentrate into one part of the space, and claim ownership over it. The moment you grow as big as e.g. Corsairs, or Outcast, said Hispanics will slaughter you down to the point they will be able to control you again while you still stay useful for them. That's one thing.

The other is that if you grow big and concentrated, such will either lead to chaos, or order. A middle state can work in small communities, but not in big ones. Chaos is obviously gonna crush you, order on the other hand will throw you on a path leading to the very same thing Zoners wanted to escape in the first place: governance.

Want conflict? Chose an other faction from the crapton out there which were designed for conflict. Zoners ain't one of them. Open conflict would crush Zoner Neutrality into tiny shards and your people would be slaughtered way before you could repair it.

Besides, in exchange for lack of offensive behavior from Zoner part as well as said Neutrality, you got basically no enemies (both Order and Core can defend you from Nomads), Sirius-wide ZoI and apart from the above, as vague lore as possible. If you can't value these things making the Zoner faction as unique as possible, why have you chosen to play them? Why can't you play them as what they are instead of altering them to fit your own needs? Said needs can be fulfilled with a dozen of other factions, there is no need to transform Zoners into just another generic pewpew faction.

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[Elmothehorse]

Roleplay? You know, come up with a purpose for your character that isn't "engagebugen all red i c"?

And here we go again, when all attempts at rational argumentation fail, accuse the other side of being bad at RP and just wanting to shoot and destroy all they see.

People keep repeating the same arguments over and over like dogs chasing their tails.

When you take a step back from all the hollow arguments like "you are just bad person no RP pvp whore" which is true for each and every one here when they are in the mood for it, and the "your faction cant have that because -insert random vanilla example which was the way it was mainly because Microsoft didnt provide the budget to developers to create an infinte univers", the arguments can pretty much be split in two sides:

1. The people who want to be free to build their own stories, create their own factions/groups after their own ideas, who don't want to have to relly on the grace of certain "disco chiefs" who have developed a tremendous feeling of self-importance because of the amount of time they have spent here.

2. The people who want to control what happens on the server by deciding what is OORP and what is good RP, what is fair and what is unfair, what faction may fly what number of ships, who may do things and who may not, and for who so-called PvP whoring is cool RP and simple fun and people who dont like it are noobs who whine too much (lets give a random name like Beavers) and for who it is horrible PvP whoring "engagebugen all red i c" (lets take a random example like navy simply doing their canon RP role).

Let me put it to you that most people who try to play here think they are signing up for play style Nr 1, and very few for playstyle Nr 2. The people who adhere to style 2 probably wouldnt believe in this play style either if roles were reversed, and if they were not the ones controlling, but the ones being controlled.

The discovery mod is huge. With many empty Systems. A lot of people say too many, actually. Player numbers are dwindling.

So I'd like to ask the people who identify themselves with Nr 2, is there really not enough space in the Disco universe so that Zoners can build their own thing, the way they like it, without you having to exercise the same control over them like you do over the factions that control house space?

The RP reason why so many people in Sirius want to become Zoners may be exactly the same as the reasons I have given about players here. Space is big. Space is rich. The possibilities are limitless. People want to forge their own destinies, and not be controlled.

What is driving people out of house space to be zoners may be exactly what will drive them out of the Server, if you dont even give them freedom to do what they dream of when they think about space. Please, ist not the mod that ist too small, its what people are premitted to do by the minds of people who follow philosophy Nr 2.

Think about it.

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User was banned for: I was starting to worry you weren't alive anymore, Karlotta!
Time left: (Permanent)

[lIceColon]

Please tell me how a group or a few groups of people with the same idea went from having a few bases in the outer reaches of Sirius because they wished to be left alone to a faction having a crap ton of bases.

Because without the crap ton of bases they would not have enough infrastructure to stay in the borderworlds

As for the thing with zoner capship line and the ridiculousness of Zoner military, imo there are rich Zoners who could afford the construction of caps, however with their neutral status, zoners should be restricted to purely defensive weapons (ie no mortars etc)

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No atmosphere? GTFO.
The propeller is the greatest invention of all time.