(02-18-2014, 06:19 AM)aerelm Wrote: [align=justify]Existing Phantom ships are low quality imports and their balance is admittedly somewhat out of whack, and the only reason they didn't really get much attention since 87 has been because the faction was not in use on the offiicial server.
Balance of the phantom ships is fine actually. Most of the Phantoms I knew hated the way the ravensclaw, the most heavily used ship, flew, but I liked it a lot. You can quote stats at me but it just shows you haven't flown it enough to make that judgment call, or know how different it actually flies from just about every other VHF. I never heard any complaints about the other ships, except for the ridiculous shape of the cruiser.
(02-18-2014, 07:18 AM)Echo 7-7 Wrote:
(02-18-2014, 06:51 AM)HuggieSunrise Wrote: ...
When has the mod replaced any imported asset with a recolored original model?
...
Never. However, the current policy is to improve model quality, and this certainly an improvement to me.
Put some effort into the replacements if you're going to replace them. You had plenty of time since the Phantoms disbanded to change the ship models, but nothing was changed because "the equipment is used on other servers running this mod". I don't think that's changed, so the reason to change this for, of all things, a retexture of the CTE line, is pretty silly.
There hasn't been an effort to preserve the defining characteristics of the original ships (no, adding black on every other panel doesn't count). Sure, you might be able to replace them because of the general attitude towards the legacy of the old faction, but I think we've all seen enough Eagles to last a lifetime.
Uh, a reskin is about one step lower than a kitbash from a modellers pov. It does not mean it looks bad, but it certainly is pretty lazy indeed.
to sum up the ships in one word: boring
but not boring cause the models are bad. after all 2 of them are vanilla and one of them is an established custom ship - but boring because they bring nothing new at all. it would be similarly easy but more effective to kitbash something new if you do not want to make really new ones.
either way, they fit the mod better than the current ones. so i would consider them to be "placeholders" rather than final products. (and be good with it for the time being)
(02-18-2014, 06:51 AM)HuggieSunrise Wrote: ...
When has the mod replaced any imported asset with a recolored original model?
...
Never. However, the current policy is to improve model quality, and this certainly an improvement to me.
Put some effort into the replacements if you're going to replace them. You had plenty of time since the Phantoms disbanded to change the ship models, but nothing was changed because "the equipment is used on other servers running this mod". I don't think that's changed, so the reason to change this for, of all things, a retexture of the CTE line, is pretty silly.
There hasn't been an effort to preserve the defining characteristics of the original ships (no, adding black on every other panel doesn't count). Sure, you might be able to replace them because of the general attitude towards the legacy of the old faction, but I think we've all seen enough Eagles to last a lifetime.
There has been a lot of time, yes, but changing the Phantom ship models was an almost non-existent objective. I was unaware that Admin policy was going to change until the announcement about Phantom assets being opened for recycling. These ships were obviously made in a short amount of time since that announcement by aerelm, whose primary specialty is not modelling. This is his independent effort that he's offering us, and since the quality is superior to the old ships (even though the design is not unique), it passes the key requirements for a new model.
Because the Phantoms are not actually being resurrected, I don't see how there is any need to preserve the characteristics of the old ships. I think we've also seen enough Sabres to last a lifetime.
Pancakes Wrote:What if new models were made? ...
If other models were offered, we would give them the same consideration.
Since you joined in 2006, you should be aware that the models in question have a history much longer than the Phantoms. The Shadow was Junker, then LSF, then Phantom, whereas the Cruiser was the Corsairs first large cap.
I'm not sure why replacing these ships was an almost non-existent objective, since the reason's you're using to justify the change now (low quality, old ship-pack content, whatever else) are reasons that haven't changed for at least since as long as I've played discovery. I disagree with some of those reasons personally, particularly since I've flown this ship since it was a Junker one so it's quite close to my heart, but if you believe the reasons you have, they've simply not changed for years.
Yes, we've all seen enough Sabres and Eagles to last a lifetime, so why are you choosing one or the other? As usual, you're advocating a second-best stop-gap measure instead of doing it properly. As you say, they were made in a short time by somebody who doesn't specialise in modeling, but this doesn't look like a modeling job, but a texturing one. Not saying the work is bad, it isn't and it's more than I could do, but what's the point in adding a retextured ship?
If you want quality, as you say you do, you wont settle for it. Speaking of which, lets talk about the model quality of the freely available Havoc II.
(02-17-2014, 09:38 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: Combining the technological wisdom of its Creators and observing human ingenuity, this automaton developed powerful spacecraft designed to serve Daam K’vosh interests.
(02-17-2014, 09:38 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: Unfortunately, the ships that were already designed to service the Daam K'vosh were too advanced for the limited capabilities of humans.
I know that these quotes come from an example proposal only, and I know that these proposals are a 'rush job' or whatever, but really now?
This is the civilian line with a black paint job. That is pretty much the least congruous thing possible with relation to "ancient Daam K'Vosh technology".
tl;dr at this point the old models are legit better
(02-18-2014, 10:12 AM)McNeo Wrote: Since you joined in 2006, you should be aware that the models in question have a history much longer than the Phantoms. The Shadow was Junker, then LSF, then Phantom, whereas the Cruiser was the Corsairs first large cap.
I'm not sure why replacing these ships was an almost non-existent objective, since the reason's you're using to justify the change now (low quality, old ship-pack content, whatever else) are reasons that haven't changed for at least since as long as I've played discovery. I disagree with some of those reasons personally, particularly since I've flown this ship since it was a Junker one so it's quite close to my heart, but if you believe the reasons you have, they've simply not changed for years.
Yes, we've all seen enough Sabres and Eagles to last a lifetime, so why are you choosing one or the other? As usual, you're advocating a second-best stop-gap measure instead of doing it properly. As you say, they were made in a short time by somebody who doesn't specialise in modeling, but this doesn't look like a modeling job, but a texturing one. Not saying the work is bad, it isn't and it's more than I could do, but what's the point in adding a retextured ship?
If you want quality, as you say you do, you wont settle for it. Speaking of which, lets talk about the model quality of the freely available Havoc II.
There are many ships with long histories that have been replaced by newer models. In short, the old Phantom ships are now no longer an exception to that rule.
What's the point?
1) We needed new models because the old Phantom ships are very poor quality, and imports to boot.
2) It sets a precedent for the replacement of the old Phantom ships with superior models.
Since you too joined in 2006, I would assume you know how ships get into the mod. In most cases, models are not commissioned (at least in this era of the mod); modellers approach the Dev team with their work, either as new submissions or as replacement submissions. This is a case of the latter. If aerelm hadn't created these ships and offered them to us, we'd still be stuck with the old models. Any modeller can do the same as he has, and submit replacement models.
Why are we choosing one or the other? We're not choosing, as we have not been offered a choice. What aerelm has offered us is retextured CTE ships. If someone else wants to retexture BW ships and submit them (or he himself does that), then that's fine too - but that hasn't happened yet.
Addendum: If we get a better offer, we'll take it. It's that simple.