Super Long Megapost First post working version.

[tothebonezone]

You don't know how developers work, do you?

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User was banned for: https://discoverygc.com/forums/showthrea...tid=202684
Time left: (Permanent)

[Gytrash]

You don't know how developers work, do you?

[Kazinsal]

So I'm not part of the community, then?

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Retired, permanently.

[Gytrash]

So I'm not part of the community, then?

I'm not saying that you are part of the community. What I'm saying is that if you are attempting to find out what the community wants (As a dev) Then voting in the poll is not productive. You already know what your opinion is you don't need to vote to tell yourself what you want.

[Treewyrm]

I would be interested in knowing exactly where I was dragging factions into this. And the only individuals I referenced were those who had posted in the thread or those who had voted on the poll.

Wouldn't speak for other factions, they're free to do so if they wish, but my point, as a player, I'd say K'hara, for instance. Seems to be an all too convenient poster boy for your arguments, used as a chilling tale to scare the children into going to bed, or rather going with the line of through you'd want them to. What a shame it's been exaggerated and quotes ripped out of their context, lumped together into a one giant clusterfk and mess. You aren't solving anything here with this approach, Gytrash, you're just seeking attention. And more noise drama.

But speaking and thinking of the children, both as a player and developer. I find it particularly interesting that at a moment notice zoner officials would quietly throw their indies under the bus just so long as they retain their own toys, but at the very same time very much like to have indies voice added into the chorus of demands whenever it suits them. I have to say you guys are quite something. Too bad there are folk here who been long enough and who can see through that.

[Gytrash]

I would be interested in knowing exactly where I was dragging factions into this. And the only individuals I referenced were those who had posted in the thread or those who had voted on the poll.

Wouldn't speak for other factions, they're free to do so if they wish, but my point, as a player, I'd say K'hara, for instance. Seems to be an all too convenient poster boy for your arguments, used as a chilling tale to scare the children into going to bed, or rather going with the line of through you'd want them to. What a shame it's been exaggerated.

But speaking and thinking of the children, both as a player and developer. I find it particularly interesting that at a moment notice zoner officials would quietly throw their indies under the bus just so long as they retain their own toys, but at the very same time very much like to have indies voice added into the chorus of demands whenever it suits them. I have to say you guys are quite something. Too bad there are folk here who been long enough and who can see through that.

I BEG YOUR PARDON?

Where did I say that we should take all independent battleships away? Read my posts. There are 12 of them and all I suggested was that Official faction should have have the ability to police the Capital ships.

This would prevent random factions from creating an alt Zoner jumper for ease purposes. It would also mean that we could bring people to heel, the traditional ZA case being a good one.

And yes, the K'hara are the bogeyman under the bed. The nomads are a real inRP threat and if you are as bad at flying a ship as I am the NPCs are a real threat too. inRP the nomads destroyed Freeport 7 and remain a threat to this day, jsut recently having rendered Toledo completely uninhabitable.

Also I personally have operated an independent Zoner battleship in the past. Not related to factions in the most part until he picked up an OSI contract, which later got revoked because of his actions.

Edited to correct mistakes. My fingers are so damn tired.

[Treewyrm]

Over the years it had become quite clear to me that when these big threads comes up there is some distortion too, a bound disparity between what's been said publicly for public and what being intended privately, so I read more than public posts and replies, Gytrash. But I digress, it's really not my mess to participate and I never had a role in decision-making related to the origin of this mess. I merely point out at exaggerated rationales being made, dragging over and over, but seldom really having much to do with what's going on.

Speaking of bogeymen, rationales and actual "real" threats, I have a question if you care to answer: would you like nomad indies to have capital ships without any other adjustments (ID or otherwise) being made?

One more thing to add, no doubt this one will be dragged over times and times again, parts ripped out of context and waved around like a vilifying poster against me, as some are so eager to separate by "with us or against us", evidenced by misdirected anger and insults thrown at me personally and completely bogus accusatory. But here is something I have to say from my experience here. In the Omicrons area I easily work together with other factions as a developer, namely Order and Core. We brainstorm ideas, together write infocards, draw map sketches, and generally really go along as community members despite that inRP more or less our main characters are mortal enemies "sworn" to eradicate each other and we are very much eager to pew each other into oblivion (it is a bit more complex than that, but on the surface that's the case). But there is no drama and I dare you to find any big drama between us over the last years. The "zonerzonerzoner" phenomenon had already became memetic in this community, a seasonal drama. So comparatively when I tried to ask some zoner folks here about what they'd like it wasn't a wishlist, weren't suggestions, wasn't a collective brainstorm, it was obnoxious and demeanour attitude in response. I was honestly appalled. And I think that's an indicator of a much deeper problem that requires something other than rage, whining and bogeymen, it requires reflection, taking a good look at what you do, how you do it and what are the results of your endeavours. May be so that you, and others preaching that chorus, voiced so loudly, so aggressively for the past years that many associate all this with toxic behaviour, and rightfully so. Take a step back, have a deep breath in and out, and have a few hours of retrospect. But it would surprise me none if this reply post of mine fell on deaf ears. I'd like to be surprised, for once. Care trying?

Something is rotten in the state of Zoners.

[Gytrash]

Tomorrow. I'm on a tablet at the moment and headed for sleep.

[Gytrash]

Over the years it had become quite clear to me that when these big threads comes up there is some distortion too, a bound disparity between what's been said publicly for public and what being intended privately, so I read more than public posts and replies, Gytrash. But I digress, it's really not my mess to participate and I never had a role in decision-making related to the origin of this mess. I merely point out at exaggerated rationales being made, dragging over and over, but seldom really having much to do with what's going on.

As someone who does not have the luxury of being in the Dev chat and reading what is said in private all I know from Devs is what is publicly stated. What has been stated is this

"Because of the actions of some indies, we are going to retcon every bit of Zoner lore made since .82 that includes battleships in any way and make them all Transports. This is a decision that has been made without consulting the Official factions or anyone who is actually currently active in leading the Zoner community.

That's what I see. That's what I have a problem with.

That and the wierdness of the vote. Count the votes manually and you see that without the doublevotes there is actually a majority for keeping zoner capships the way they are, this is a <50% majority. So I'm thinking that the forums derped up and nobody really caught it.

Speaking of bogeymen, rationales and actual "real" threats, I have a question if you care to answer: would you like nomad indies to have capital ships without any other adjustments (ID or otherwise) being made?

One more thing to add, no doubt this one will be dragged over times and times again, parts ripped out of context and waved around like a vilifying poster against me, as some are so eager to separate by "with us or against us", evidenced by misdirected anger and insults thrown at me personally and completely bogus accusatory. But here is something I have to say from my experience here. In the Omicrons area I easily work together with other factions as a developer, namely Order and Core. We brainstorm ideas, together write infocards, draw map sketches, and generally really go along as community members despite that inRP more or less our main characters are mortal enemies "sworn" to eradicate each other and we are very much eager to pew each other into oblivion (it is a bit more complex than that, but on the surface that's the case). But there is no drama and I dare you to find any big drama between us over the last years. The "zonerzonerzoner" phenomenon had already became memetic in this community, a seasonal drama.

The problem is this. For a long time nobody has really consulted Zoners when changes are being made to the faction. It's been a constant thread in every Zoner chat among almost all of the Zoners that I know that
"We can't influence what the Devs do to our faction."
So among the Zoner community there is this feeling that no matter what we say. I mean, even when I speak to Devs and point out how it's entirely likely for the Zoners to have grown some in twenty years all the Devs say is
"No you are Zoners, your infocards say this"
and when I say
"The infocards also say that Bretonia is afraid of attacking Freeport One"
Then the Devs quickly say
"Those infocards are old and you can't base all your RP of things being the same now as they were then"

THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY!

So comparatively when I tried to ask some zoner folks here about what they'd like it wasn't a wishlist, weren't suggestions, wasn't a collective brainstorm, it was obnoxious and demeanour attitude in response. I was honestly appalled.

Who did you ask? It wasn't me, nor was it the Leader of the Phoenix, the leader of the OSI or the leader of the TAZ, or any of the ranking members.

I know this because I speak to them. Tell me who you spoke to? Was it Tel? Because I can tell you that you can't expect him to be the most reasonable of Zoners.

Here's a Zoner wishlist, it contains two things at the moment

1. Don't take away our caps and retcon our RP
   
2. Please talk to us and be willing to reach a compromise.
   

That's about it at the moment. Hell, a Dev saying that the Zoners can possibly have grown in twenty years and advanced is something that we've never heard. "Zoners must remain at the same size as they were at Vanilla. And everybody else can grow as they please"
Is what we keep hearing. And it's made us a bit bitter. Of course, if you want to talk to the Zoners about the future and current lore and how to make it all wokr I'd be more than happy to drag you into the chat.

And I think that's an indicator of a much deeper problem that requires something other than rage, whining and bogeymen, it requires reflection, taking a good look at what you do, how you do it and what are the results of your endeavours. May be so that you, and others preaching that chorus, voiced so loudly, so aggressively for the past years that many associate all this with toxic behaviour, and rightfully so. Take a step back, have a deep breath in and out, and have a few hours of retrospect. But it would surprise me none if this reply post of mine fell on deaf ears. I'd like to be surprised, for once. Care trying?

Something is rotten in the state of Zoners.

Yes, there is something rotten in the state of the Zoners. At the moment it's apathy.

We try to talk to the devs...
Zoners cannot grow. Shut down

We try to police our capships when every faction is making Zoner alts to use our ships for jumpships.
That's restricting indie rights. Shut down

We try to keep our capships and years of established RP
It's already been decided, we talked to nobody about this and every official faction opposes it. But we are going ahead anyway. Shut down

The problem is that the Devs seem extremely unwilling to allow the Zoners to do anything with their faction. At least with infocards and set in stone lore. I was a couple of years back planning on adding some biodomes to my station inRP and some more living space. Then advertising for refugees. I spoke to a dev about whether or not I could get the model of Freeport XV changed to reflect that.
"No"
"No?"
"No. Never. We aren't changing that model."

Oh.... Alrighty then.

[Gytrash]

You aren't solving anything here with this approach, Gytrash, you're just seeking attention.

Listen here you. And listen good. I was told in PMs that if I had a problem with what the devs were saying I should respond to it and present arguments for why I thought it wouldn't work.

I said to the Zoner faction leaders, "Hey, I'm going to argue against this."

They said "Good, here's some things to add. More power you."

So this is me, presenting my counterarguments in line with what I was told to do by a gold titled member. So read my arguments. I spent eight hours continuously typing and researching and discussing wiht people to bring this to you.
EIGHT HOURS!
And I was sick with diarrhea the whole damn time and had to keep running off to the toilet.

So don't tell me that I'm just attention whoring. If I was it would have been a post far more filled with QQ and far shorter. I don't have to spend eight hours on something to get attention. All I have to do is post ponies outside of the pony thread and I get lovely orange text in my post. And then I could cry Moderator conspiracy and get attention that way.

Do not belittle what I do and try to sideline it.

I spent eight hours writing it.

Take the time to read it.

Then write a reply.