they are in fact really just placeholders to allow trent to keep trading and roaming semi freely in-between missions. as we all know, the storyline makes him ally with all sorts of ppl all across sirius - and he ends up with a repsheet that makes him a persona non grata in many places.
but one of the core "selling arguments" for the game was - that it was like "Elite" - where the open world aspect was as great as the storybased missions.
zoners ensure that there is a feeling of traffic that does not shoot back at him no matter how messed up his rep sheet is - and to ensure that freeports allow him to dock.
according to the digital anvil designers - that actually IS the only function of zoners. ( and no, junkers are more affected by rep changes etc. - the only other faction as unaffected by rep changes are nomads )
in early discovery:
since many ppl are familiar with it. - zoners were played out much like the "iron bank of bravos" ( game of thrones )
with many similarities. they are neutral, but a powerhouse, everyone is dependent on them. they left the houses ( 7 kingdoms ) to establish themselves outside the reach of them - yet they tend to be very important in everything.
in 4.83 or 4.84 - there had been a consensus - or maybe rather ... a claim that was rarely really questioned... that zoners have a significant economical power. - and that power is kind of based on "rumors" from vanilla.
the power is not to dominate economies, but to influence them.
for that to understand - one must see that it is not only the game mechanics of freelancer that present most of the house trade as static and stagnating. - it is also meant to be like that ( up to a point ) when everything is very static - an additional economy that can change and flow CAN have a great impact.
Zoners liked to see themselves as "the tip of the scale" which was kind of supported by vanilla - BUT they were a lot less flexible than they would make others think.
in terms of self sufficiency - zoners should be able to make a living just fine - but changes in the economy has as much an effect on them as it has on others. so while it may be true that they can be the tip of the scale - it would often affect them just as negatively as it does those whom they decide to harm via economy.
disco today:
this power is questioned - and with it - the capabilities. with the early claim of economical power, it was absolutely no problem to think of warships and huge transports. ( again - a fairly good example is the iron bank of bravos, which is in fact absolutely neutral, yet it is feared by everyone ) - and with questioning their claim of economical power - or the claim that the economy is much more dynamic than it was before - the "trait" of being the tip of the scale ... removes a lot from the justification.
so if zoners are not the only dynamic element of the economy, they loose their power to shape the economa ( or lets say - the power to threaten to shape it, cause they never really could anyway ) - and with the loss of their economic might, they loose the justification for some of their greater concepts - which includes warships.
developement of zoners:
players like to argue how a faction evolves over the decades. - and that is true. a society grows by the natural idea of passing on ideas and experience. - that is only HALF true for zoners.
zoners are not comparable to like corsairs, who are a family - and hence provide a much more classic idea of passing on trade and experience.
the normal "lifespan" of a zoner is much shorter than that of a corsair. - for those who misunderstand that statement. - the END of the lifespan of a zoner does not mean that he dies. - it means that him being a zoner ends!
in a perfect enviroment - EVERY faction would pick their ID and roleplay its ID... with one exception... zoners.
it would be OTHER people who would "give" zoner players their zoner ID, when they behave like OTHERS think zoners behave like. ( that is the idea behind the statement that other ppl call them zoners, but zoners don t really do it themselves - they are settlers, outcasts, criminals on the run, adventurers etc. )
that also means that being a "zoner" is - for most people - a phase of their life - which they grow out of eventually. ( in a way - it is like totally disagreeing with your parents in your teens on everything - hating the conservative way of life ... until you come around - and start to appreciate the things )
one can argue about it - but assume that being a zoner might be something around 1-20 years of a life of a person ( depending on the actual lifespan of humans then of course ) - then they are not zoners anymore.
some become bounty hunters, some become pirates, some rejoin the houses to raise a family or so etc.
meaning - others - would not label them as zoners anymore.
that is why zoners as a faction is different to evolve to other factions. - it does not mean that there are not people who have a lifelong determination to zoners - but it can explain how different they are.
much of the tech and idea that progress the zoners is a mirror of what the new people bring to the faction. so the faction itself is in much more flow than others - but usually a bit behind
resumé
to end that - it is not illogical to think of zoners having actually BEEN a much more powerful group in the past - but possibly the ppl that drove that development with determination and charisma - just went back to the houses or became something that is not zoner anymore.
maybe zoners were once able to build and deploy huge warmachines - but it is easily imaginable that the brains behind those feats were just baited back to the houses with promises of a much better life ( and the ppl got older, more settled )
the zoner faction is much less grown by itself, and more grown by other factions - from which they benefit. but much more than other factions they are victims of a short lifespan.
so when thinking of zoners - think of people ( often westerners ) who for some reason or another - go to exotic places to find something in their life which they could not find anywhere in their natural "habitat"
some of them stay and make a living there - but most of them outgrow it and go back home after a while.
edit:
btw. none of that explains any of those hardliner theories that go around "what zoners must be" - it just explains that
- change is natural to zoners, even fundamental and profound change
- progression is not a natural occurance to zoners, they rather progress as their "natural habitat" progresses and bring these ideals to the zoners
- unification is possible, but most probably not as productive.
- exceptions ARE the rule ( zoners that make it their way of life to the end )
- the difference between a freelancer and a zoner is. one is a profession, the other is a way of life.
What in there suggests that the bounty hunters have a division that pokes around the Omicrons in caps, looking for nomad tech and warring with the Order?
Nothing. We made that up for Disco, the same way we made up the SCRA, Gallia, RoS, Phantoms, the list goes on and on.
Scumbag, Lyth, Thyrzul. You guys seem to want to put the Zoners in a big box of "Nope". Why? What good will come of turning the Zoners into a generic pile of mush?
What in there suggests that the bounty hunters have a division that pokes around the Omicrons in caps, looking for nomad tech and warring with the Order?
Nothing. We made that up for Disco, the same way we made up the SCRA, Gallia, RoS, Phantoms, the list goes on and on.
No one is saying that BHG having caps makes sense though. The problem with Zoners is it's more than just the ships, the players behind the ships don't understand the RP or the ID.
(05-28-2014, 11:32 AM)Trogdor Wrote: Scumbag, Lyth, Thyrzul. You guys seem to want to put the Zoners in a big box of "Nope". Why? What good will come of turning the Zoners into a generic pile of mush?
A more acceptable lore and a server that is not plagued by Zoner drama. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
What in there suggests that the bounty hunters have a division that pokes around the Omicrons in caps, looking for nomad tech and warring with the Order?
Nothing. We made that up for Disco, the same way we made up the SCRA, Gallia, RoS, Phantoms, the list goes on and on.
No one is saying that BHG having caps makes sense though. The problem with Zoners is it's more than just the ships, the players behind the ships don't understand the RP or the ID.
(05-28-2014, 11:32 AM)Trogdor Wrote: Scumbag, Lyth, Thyrzul. You guys seem to want to put the Zoners in a big box of "Nope". Why? What good will come of turning the Zoners into a generic pile of mush?
A more acceptable lore and a server that is not plagued by Zoner drama. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
This ^, Zoners weren't supposed to grow as big as this IMO, it was a mistake, Zoners could be great if they weren't abused by some people, most people take zoners as capital pew ships for pews, and forget about the zoner RP, you see an aquilon with probably a JD, for jump trading or such, Zoners got broken, BHG Core are kinda like Order, a powerful attack force that got a clear goal, Unlike Zoners where every faction/group got It own
Quote:Discovery is a modification that expands Freelancer universe without spoiling it with unneeded or illogical changes. This mod retains atmosphere and balance of the original game, both multiplayer and singleplayer, and adds new interesting features. Discovery is a modification that expands Freelancer universe without spoiling it with unneeded or illogical changes.
(12-06-2005, 10:29 AM)Igiss Wrote: A brief FAQ for Discovery beginners.
What is Discovery?
Discovery started in June 2005 as a small mod that I made for myself and never intended to release. Later, however, I did release the 4.73 version on TLR, and it got relatively popular... that's when I decided to continue with this work. Discovery is basically a mod that does not change the original Freelancer alot, but rather expands it. You will still find the familiar universe with familiar factions, trade routes and encounters. And - in addition to that - many new features not present in the original game, new ships, equipment, commodities.
please allow the mod to progress from the original idea igiss had years ago, scumbag.
i do believe we can agree that many factions have changed a lot from the original freelancer - and if we were to point fingers at "what is not vanilla anymore" we should also point at all the custom factions or the factions that had their lore TOTALLY changed. ( ever read the original nomad lore btw.? - you d see that it says explicitly that they have WEAKER ships and weapons than the humans - and that is why they HAD to do deception - yet i do not see ppl complain much about nomads having weapons that are comparable to human ones - on the contrary, people defend them to have them ) [edit: please notice "comparable weapons" not "op weapons" - people complain about them having OP weapons often ]
and thats not even taking the really custom ones into account ( scra, cr etc. )
so lets be a bit more open minded about change - respect what igiss wrote way back then - but allow things to change a good 4 years after he officially departed from the mod dev team.
What in there suggests that the bounty hunters have a division that pokes around the Omicrons in caps, looking for nomad tech and warring with the Order?
Nothing. We made that up for Disco, the same way we made up the SCRA, Gallia, RoS, Phantoms, the list goes on and on.
No one is saying that BHG having caps makes sense though. The problem with Zoners is it's more than just the ships, the players behind the ships don't understand the RP or the ID.
And... what.. you're saying you do?
Quote:
(05-28-2014, 11:32 AM)Trogdor Wrote: Scumbag, Lyth, Thyrzul. You guys seem to want to put the Zoners in a big box of "Nope". Why? What good will come of turning the Zoners into a generic pile of mush?
A more acceptable lore and a server that is not plagued by Zoner drama. You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying the server would be better off if the Zoners didn't even exist. Care to explain why? You say 'the server won't be plagued by Zoner drama', and I hear 'the community will lose a source of roleplay'.
(05-27-2014, 12:07 PM)Gytrash Wrote: Okay, want my opinion about the problem with Zoners?
We can't get anything done. I mean, we can do all the legwort, we had a bunch of lore proposals for the capship line and everyone kept dismissing it as "unrealistic" we even managed to get the majority of people (official factions) agreeing on the lore as it stood to make it moderately reasonable.
And then the Devmin team said "No, you can not haz it like that."
So we changed it up
"No, go change it again"
So we asked for helpful hints
"Lul, Iunno."
So then we kind of gave up. I mean, the amount of justification that was required for the CONTINUING EXISTANCE of a set of ships that had been in the game for years was far and away beyond any justification that has been pus in place for any random faction that has battleships.
Why do the Corsairs and Outcasts have a ton of battleships?
Because.
The Zoner infocard description reads that the Zoners WERE a disparate group of people that grew to be a rich and influential faction, and the Zoners of Omicron Theta feel that they are powerful enough to defend against the Corsairs and the Outcasts both and apparently are successfully doing so.
How does this translate to weak faction?
Me and Jeni manufactured the Confederation of Freeports and it's grown to be some friends who I could beg to join to pretty much encompassing every single Zoner base not owned by one of the factions (Phoenix, OSI, TAZ)...
Except maybe Bethlehem, I can't find anyone who will admit to running that so I can't ask them to join.
Still, to say "Oh Zoners never get along and can't agree on anything and therefore should be super weak" is to completely ignore the fact that there is roleplay to the contrary.
However, there is no one responsible for the NPC faction Zoners, and the reason for that is because there is no way of regulating them BECAUSe of the people who argue that zoners are all super disparate,
"Why can't I have a Liberty hating Nephilim captain? I'm an individual and that's what zoners are all about!"
Good for you. Just don't expect anyone from the official factions to help you when you get into the poo from the LN.
Or something like that. That's just a my opinion post anyway. I'll probably read this later when I'm more coherent and think "My God what did I say?" but that happens a lot.
Edit: Also there is no reason why there can't be a Zoner corporation. And if you feel that there is then feel free to provide me with the reasons why not.
Isn't that what you and the liberal-zoner left do? Find reasons why others are not zoners and go on to ridicule it? More to the point, who are you ( and I mean in general ) to tell someone he aint a zoner and a traitor of the "zoner cause". That's pure human ego to inflict your own intelligence and ideas into something, disregarding the fact that some view things differently and despite the worlds apart, they are entitled to be whoever they want to be - if we like it or not.
to your point of mutual understanding, so far none of the three has done anything at all for the zoners - despite using their banner. Ignoring their things, their progress, or in other cases - get involved when someone does something they don't like. However, I cannot ignore their history - because they have done alot in the past - but in no way or form they are entitled to hold any status currently, when they no longer take intrest in the generic faction, and in a crude way, dont give a damn on it.
Zoners were, and still are the number one faction used in Discovery ( by my read - and this might have changed in the last few months ) - Activity is not an issue for this specific faction, so why do we collude with this idea that might makes right, and that skype makes might. I'm sorry, but despite what they have done - they dont have the balls to drop the act. Benitez have done that, are you any different? Is it so hard to be kind and just and let others do what they are incapable/not willing to do?
You people can go on and stamp out any effort suggested by other members and then have the nerve to say the opposite? Whats the point of telling people to do it themselves if the body that controles it don't care about it, and in most cases - deny it.
I get it, being neutral and not doing things is good - all you gotta do is login- raise the activity tracker, do a few bucks - a few rps - and thats already enough for them to have officialdom, I'm sorry - but the buck doesn't stop when you get the status - and if you don't do anything in plain sight, as in actually doing something that people can see and feel - you are no position to dictate anything.
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