The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID

[Echo 7-7]

... Which means we couldn't get to Freeport 1, Freeport 6, or Baffin...

... As far as Freeport 1, Freeport 6, and Ames are concerned, they could potentially warrant exceptions...

Also, I'm sure you meant S-13, not S-17.

Yes, and it's perfectly acceptable for long redeployment times to be represented in-roleplay. In-game, however, it's an incredible burden to travel across, what, a dozen systems, all of which you have to cross in open space while clunking through who knows how many asteroid fields?! ...

If you don't like system design, feel free to discuss system change requests, but you're in the wrong part of the forums for that. Otherwise, as I said before, you will just have to deal with longer travel times.


I'd also care to remind everyone here that BHG caps once used to have access to House space. They were causing problems, and thus the ID was amended to evict them from House space (read: "Cannot bring Cruisers or Battleships into any system containing a Jump Gate with the exception of Sigma-19, Sigma-17 and the Omicrons"). The associated problems were resolved. Therefore, considering we are experiencing similar difficulties, the same option would appear to be effective at reaching a resolution. It has not yet been disproven that that by applying a restriction of this calibre, the gameplay issues could be resolved.

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There was a sig here, once.

[Lythrilux]

Could we have some dev/admin input on this idea please?

Well, you can't change the list of House systems to include both the systems listed in bold and italics; it has to stay as what it already is. Therefore, restricting Zoner caps from entering House systems is likely too small an area for what that approach is requesting, but yet restricting them from systems with a Jump Gate might be slightly overbearing. Therefore, what if they were restricted from systems with two or more Jump Gates? (Sorry if that's already been raised, I didn't bother to read most of the preceding seven pages.)

Regardless, if it was up to me to re-write the ID, I would at least have a line saying that Cruisers and Battleships are restricted from entering House systems (as defined by the server rules for docking). This would not apply for the Zoner factions with custom IDs, mostly because that would be a bit too harsh on TAZ, who I believe should at least be able to pass through Liberty/Bretonia under escort.

That would probably be the better suggestion, I'll make the relevant changes.

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[Echo 7-7]

That would probably be the better suggestion, I'll make the relevant changes.

I suggest adding an exception for systems with Zoner bases to that line.

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There was a sig here, once.

[RedEclipse]

I suggest remind that majority of zoner players and official factions against this change.

If we don't post there that frequently, it doesn't mean we don't give a damn about Zoner ID - we tired of whining and generation of anti-zoner threads and preferring to playing game instead of wasting time.

[Lythrilux]

I suggest remind that majority of zoner players and official factions against this change.

I've only seen you, a couple of officials and a few disgruntled indies cry out against this change. And all of you present flawed counter-arguments.

If we don't post there that frequently, it doesn't mean we don't give a damn about Zoner ID - we tired of whining and generation of anti-zoner threads and preferring to playing game instead of wasting time.

That doesn't constitute as 'against the suggestion' by the way.
And you're an official, you play with your own ID.

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[Occam Razor]

God forbid we might actually have an opportunity to do something legitimate with our capital ships. God forbid we might want to include our cap characters in these conflicts. You know, the ones we put the most money, time, and effort into developing.

You can simply RP as the same character that you put all that effort into developing and fly a Gunboat or a Bomber. Ingame characters are not equal to RP characters.

I don't see a reason for a station like Ames to be defended by Capital Ships, since bombers and Gunboats usually do everything Capital Ships do, just better and with less problems like these.

Zoner Capital Ships should stay in Deep Space, at least the Nephilim and the Corvo. The Aquilon could still jump to the location it is required (if it is really required) and the fearless is supposed to defend stations and convoys in the harsh border and edge worlds, not in independent systems between houses. It also iRP does not have the range to defend both the Omicrons and the Taus at the same time, I think.

Pilot carrying this quasi-lawful ID is a Zoner, who:
- Can attack any ship in self-defense, to protect another Zoner ship, or in defense of Zoner bases.
- Cannot bring cruisers, carriers or battleships into systems with 2 or more jump gates with the exception of systems with a Zoner base.
- Cannot dock transports with more than 3,600 cargo within any House, except on GMG, IMG or Zoner bases.
- Cannot participate in unlawful actions except as described above.

Thus, I approve this. +1

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"Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it."
René Descartes

[lIceColon]

Yo, Lythrilux

- Cannot bring cruisers, carriers or battleships into systems with 2 or more jump gates with the exception of systems with a Zoner base.

After my "vacation", I thought about it, and I've come up with a compromise:
There are already house laws in place against foreign capital ships, but there should be nothing really physically stopping a zoner cap entering any system with "two or more jump gates". Currently I enjoy blind jumping my aquilon and dealing with the inrp consequences, I do not like breaking that freedom or having to join a faction just for that.

You mentioned zoner caps exploiting the self defense rule to engage house caps for a quick pew, that can be solved easily, perhaps restricting zoner caps to a certain distance from trade lanes and jump gates where a house military might have any chance of fighting them. Also, restrict the zoner capital's system chat privileges. This would force them to do all of their illegal house space presence discreetly, because although zoners are shady characters but their outward reputation and diplomacy must be maintained and it would make sense for them to hide the fact that they are breaking the house laws.

So here are my suggested changes to your "anti zonerzonerzoner rules":

- In systems with more than 2 JGs, Cannot bring cruisers, carriers or battleships within 25K range of any trade lane, jump gate nor base, with the exception of Zoner Bases in systems with a Zoner Base
- Zoner Capitals are not allowed to use system chat, or in any other way reveal their presence to or provoke lawfuls while in a system with more than 2 JGs
- Upon radar contact with a lawful in systems with more than 2 JGs, Zoner Capitals should vacate the area immediately. Any lawful who detects a zoner capital on radar is to send it an ooc warning and give it 30 seconds to disappear, and if it doesn't the lawful will escort it out of system and the Zoner capital is to offer no resistance.

Obviously the changes are subject to refinement but the general ideas are there.

The results:

- Zoner caps would still be allowed in house space, but since (inrp) the houses and military don't see them, therefore the diplomacy would not be affected since they aren't caught breaking the law.
- YOU don't have to see zoners caps flying around anywhere near lawfuls, and zonerzonerzoner behaviour of provoking house military for a quick pew would not exist, at all since zoners are to offer no resistance to being escorted out of system
- The zoner cap has 30 seconds to vacate the scanner range of a lawful in order to simulate a "brief scanner glitch" so as to avoid the lawfuls going all zealous the instant they see a zoner cap, allowing zoners again to maintain neutrality despite breaking the law for which they should not be caught for. The ooc warning is to compensate for the different scanners used by both parties.
- It makes sense because while a zoner crew might consent to their captain breaking the law, they certainly won't allow violent conflict once they are caught breaking the law.

[Echo 7-7]

... perhaps restricting zoner caps to a certain distance from trade lanes and jump gates where a house military might have any chance of fighting them. Also, restrict the zoner capital's system chat privileges...

These suggestions are unfeasible and unrealistic in terms of mitigating the issues at hand.

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There was a sig here, once.

[Lythrilux]

After my "vacation", I thought about it, and I've come up with a compromise:
There are already house laws in place against foreign capital ships, but there should be nothing really physically stopping a zoner cap entering any system with "two or more jump gates". Currently I enjoy blind jumping my aquilon and dealing with the inrp consequences, I do not like breaking that freedom or having to join a faction just for that.

What kind of logic is that? Jumping an aqullion into house space is silly in itself. And most of the time those aqullions are more or less used for jump trading, which isn't a healthy activity.
And that still does not ignore the fact that it's against house laws for zoner caps to he in house space. And how does not being able to bring your cap into house space inhibit your RP? Are you really unable to RP without a Zoner capital ship, a ship that conflicts with zoner lore already?

You mentioned zoner caps exploiting the self defense rule to engage house caps for a quick pew, that can be solved easily, perhaps restricting zoner caps to a certain distance from trade lanes and jump gates where a house military might have any chance of fighting them. Also, restrict the zoner capital's system chat privileges. This would force them to do all of their illegal house space presence discreetly, because although zoners are shady characters but their outward reputation and diplomacy must be maintained and it would make sense for them to hide the fact that they are breaking the house laws.

Do you seriously think that's going to work? Zoner caps won't bother with a 25k restriction, it's not restricting enough. Ad I have said it is against house laws for them to be there. And are you seriously betting on the zoner caps being discreet? Zoner caps are spotted in house space all the time, how will pushing them away from lanes make a difference?
Zoner caps being discreet will stand about the same chance as being discreet as smugglers or other unlawful capitals. In case you didn't know, pirate factions don't like foreign caps in there territory either, so Zoner caps will still attract attention. And where there's unlawfuls there's lawfuls.

- In systems with more than 2 JGs, Cannot bring cruisers, carriers or battleships within 25K range of any trade lane, jump gate nor base, with the exception of Zoner Bases in systems with a Zoner Base
- Zoner Capitals are not allowed to use system chat, or in any other way reveal their presence to or provoke lawfuls while in a system with more than 2 JGs

"reveal their presence" is very vague. Under circumstances such as this we might start seeing zoners sanctioned for simply being spotted by lawfuls. That'll simply create a lot of unneeded hassle for both the zoners and the admins.

- Upon radar contact with a lawful in systems with more than 2 JGs, Zoner Capitals should vacate the area immediately. Any lawful who detects a zoner capital on radar is to send it an ooc warning and give it 30 seconds to disappear, and if it doesn't the lawful will escort it out of system and the Zoner capital is to offer no resistance.

That's just the height of silliness. Firstly, why do they need to give an ooc warning? Are we really trying to make ooc part of role play now? Secondly, you can't be sure that the zoner capital will even bother to comply. And thirdly, relating to the second point, are you seriously implying that it would be against the rules for shooting a zoner cap that is in house space and is breaking house laws? And he the zoner is to offer no resistance, that conflicts with how they're allowed to attack if self-defence (if the lawful actually is allowed to shoot them). It would just be much easier for caps to mot be allowed in those systems rather than go through this horribly messy process.

The results:

- Zoner caps would still be allowed in house space, but since (inrp) the houses and military don't see them, therefore the diplomacy would not be affected since they aren't caught breaking the law.

I'm sorry but that is just utterly ridiculous. You're implying that if we see a Zoner cap, it should be seen as oorp and not existing inRP. Zoners can't choose to have OP diplomacy and still be allowed to break house laws when flying caps into house space. Are zoners some sort of secret government conspiracy crossed with UFOs now?

- YOU don't have to see zoners caps flying around anywhere near lawfuls, and zonerzonerzoner behaviour of provoking house military for a quick pew would not exist, at all since zoners are to offer no resistance to being escorted out of system

FYI: Lawful patrols aren't restricted to just the lanes. Have you seen NY recently and how all the fights take place behind the planet and away from the lanes?

- The zoner cap has 30 seconds to vacate the scanner range of a lawful in order to simulate a "brief scanner glitch" so as to avoid the lawfuls going all zealous the instant they see a zoner cap, allowing zoners again to maintain neutrality despite breaking the law for which they should not be caught for. The ooc warning is to compensate for the different scanners used by both parties.

Yet again, utterly ridiculous. We shouldn't be implementing ooc such as that into an RP encounter. Furthermore, Zoners shouldn't be allowed to walk away from these situations without punishments. It's just illogical. And what do you mean "should not be caught for"? Are Zoners above the law now?

- It makes sense because while a zoner crew might consent to their captain breaking the law, they certainly won't allow violent conflict once they are caught breaking the law.

If they're pacifists, why are they flying a war machine into house space of all places in the first place? If I was a Lawful, even if they protested about the violent conflict I'd still shoot them anyway because they're violating house laws.

Colon, I really don't understand your argument here. What makes Zoners so special? What makes them better than everyone else? Why are they above everything including the law?
Are Zoners meant to be God's chosen people who, instead of stuck roaming the desert, are stuck roaming the busy vacuum of Sirian space?

Edit: Echo 7-7 summed it up perfectly.

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[Alvin]

As long as there is admin / developer assurance that this change will ONLY affect Generic Zoner ID and not TAZ / OSI / Phoenix IDs (also not change their minds in the foreseeable future), I am reasonably happy with it.