The end of zonerzonerzoner - Rewrite the Zoner ID

[RedEclipse]

I've only seen you, a couple of officials and a few disgruntled indies cry out against this change. And all of you present flawed counter-arguments.

I need to point who's crying there?

I think zoners got enough of threads with arguments from both sides and admins took this into account of final decision. Though, as Garret said, everything stay as it is. So go ahead, if you take fun of being anti-zoner guy, but its like a spoiling air in a public - so much noise, but no result.

Your idea will never intended to end zonerzonerzoner be honest, but to "sanction" zoner players.

[Lythrilux]

I've only seen you, a couple of officials and a few disgruntled indies cry out against this change. And all of you present flawed counter-arguments.

I need to point who's crying there?

I think zoners got enough of threads with arguments from both sides and take this into account of final decision of admins. Though, as Garret said, everything stay as it is. So go ahead, if you take fun of being anti-zoner guy, but its like a spoiling air in a public - so much noise, but no result.

Garrett said that there wouldn't be any more changes to the Zoners ships. Therefore, a solution to remedy things via the Zoners ID is still viable.

As a community, it's up to us to come together and present ideas with some coherence. Else we're just going to have a repeat of the initial start of Jinx's zoner proposal.

I am simply trying to help ease the pain. Nothing more, nothing less.

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[RedEclipse]

You should know this change aren't going to fix anything, but, as i said, this idea more about to "sanction" Zoner players because of noisy zonerzonerzoner drama.

Zoner caps flying around Omicronrs and extremely rarely enter house systems, but most usually if its happens - it's a total newbie. So, we should totally rewrite IDs what people should/shouldn't do because of new players?

[Jinx]

ah - no no no, don t hold the changing of ships like a damocles sword. - the proposal is off the table, assets went to other projects and the idea will most certainly not be implemented.

it is now up to the zoner factions to care for their parent faction ( literally care for their well being - as is the purpose of the official factions ) - don t expect much efford from the dev side anymore.

we got our fair share of trying to restart zoners on a "healthy basis" - and it was rejected.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[lIceColon]

I've already been very clear about why your "war machine" arguments are illogical, and I've been very clear about the zoner's right to be in places where they should physically be able to go to.

I put thought into my posts. I try to word them carefully so as to deal with every situation, such as the lawfuls behind the planet, which is covered by "25k from bases" as the last time I checked planets are bases.

I made the suggested rule changes convoluted because I'd rather have a convoluted ID that takes actual thought to interpret than a simple restriction that overtly restricts indie zoners.

Over half of your arguments are already answered by my post, on issues such as "I'm sorry but that is just utterly ridiculous. You're implying that if we see a Zoner cap, it should be seen as oorp and not existing inRP. " in which I make it very clear - because on your current oorp rules, metaseeing a zoner cap on the chat list is enough to convict him for a sanction. In my rule change, I clearly state that Zoners should be allowed to enter house space, they should just do their best not to get caught by lawfuls.

"how will pushing them away from lanes, bases and gates make a difference?"
Really, that is self evident. 25k is a long way from the casual lawful patrol, unless it is specifically searching for something.

"reveal their presence" is very vague. Under circumstances such as this we might start seeing zoners sanctioned for simply being spotted by lawfuls.
Yes it is. And it is supposed to, because Zoner caps are to take the maximum amount of precautions in keeping themselves out of the lawful's awareness. When I said "Should not be caught for", I meant "should not get themselves caught for".

And why is it that zoners deserve to be punished for bringing their "warships" into house space in a time where everybody has warships? Are they to be punished merely for existing in house space?

Yes, Zoners deserve their "OP Diplomacy", that is their usp. I see now that you made these rule changes not to better the server, but to satisfy your personal ideas of how other players should play the game, with no regard for other people's enjoyment of the game even when it doesn't affect you. You don't explore options that benefit indie zoners, you're like the government, you see something wrong and then you use it as an excuse to take away freedoms in the name of other's welfare.

I put thought into my posts. I try to word them carefully so as to deal with every situation, and it's clear from your reply that you took precisely 0 brain power in reading my post, in even attempting to understand it. Your starting point was completely off from the "civilized discussion" you supposedly wanted and you never afforded it any merit in the first place.

I'm done with this thread.

[RedEclipse]

Who said a single thing about changing ships, Jinx?

And yeah, really - after disbanding Omicroners you shouldn't give a damn about Zoners as you did it lately. You disband faction and betrayed all of it's players which wanted to carry on the group and zoner community in general - so yeah we don't need your changes.

[Lythrilux]

You should know this change aren't going to fix anything, but, as i said, this idea more about to "sanction" Zoner players because of noisy zonerzonerzoner drama.

This idea is to help prevent all the zoner drama created in the house space and putting Zoner caps back into the systems thru belong in. This idea does not at all inhibit a Zoner players RP, only the ship they use. Currently, Zoner caps are already seen as a mistake. This suggestion exists to provide more gravity to Zoner capitals as treating them as real exploration ships in the Omicrons without upsetting the players who use them (as it doesn't take away their ships, it simply moves them elsewhere). The people who abuse the ID will be sanctioned, yes. But that is the story with all IDs. Currently, Zoner players not only abuse the ID, but also the RP. Like I said, it's either something like this or we say goodbye to the Zoners perfectly neutral diplomacy.

Zoner caps flying around Omicronrs and extremely rarely enter house systems, but most usually if its happens - it's a total newbie. So, we should totally rewrite IDs what people should/shouldn't do because of new players?

I'm sure they know what they're doing. And if it's newbies who are in house space, and all the 'real' Zoners who follow the Zoner RP are in the Omicrons, then surely it won't impact people's RP?

If an ID is being abused, then yes, it should be rewritten. The people who are flying these caps in house space aren't following the Zoner RP. The people who really are following the Zoner RP are using their ships correctly in the Omicrons and the like.

This change won't impact people's RP. However, if you could show me evidence of how it will impact people's RP, I'm all ears.

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[WesternPeregrine]

After my "vacation", I thought about it, and I've come up with a compromise:
There are already house laws in place against foreign capital ships, but there should be nothing really physically stopping a zoner cap entering any system with "two or more jump gates". Currently I enjoy blind jumping my aquilon and dealing with the inrp consequences, I do not like breaking that freedom or having to join a faction just for that.

There is nothing really physically stopping an Hogosha to pirate inside Kusari space, or Liberty too... except perhaps the agreements they have made, and their evolving lore (based on several abusive cases). This restrictions were imposed on the id.

Zoners tend to avoid house space, and the captial ships role and lore is based on the Omicrons. It would be wise that zoners inrp restricted themselves from taking their precious and scarce defense assets into house space, and that would be reflected in the ID too.

- In systems with more than 2 JGs, Cannot bring cruisers, carriers or battleships within 25K range of any trade lane, jump gate nor base, with the exception of Zoner Bases in systems with a Zoner Base
- Zoner Capitals are not allowed to use system chat, or in any other way reveal their presence to or provoke lawfuls while in a system with more than 2 JGs
- Upon radar contact with a lawful in systems with more than 2 JGs, Zoner Capitals should vacate the area immediately. Any lawful who detects a zoner capital on radar is to send it an ooc warning and give it 30 seconds to disappear, and if it doesn't the lawful will escort it out of system and the Zoner capital is to offer no resistance.

Obviously the changes are subject to refinement but the general ideas are there.

This isn't truly considered ID rules, but are more akin to a smuggler modus operandi. You don't see police giving a occ warning to smugglers to leave the area, else they wouldn't be caught.

Due to the lack of existence of edge world connections between the Taus and the Omegas, perhaps I would suggest adding Dublin and Edinburgh as the only two house system exceptions to zoner caps clause.

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Kusari Former Mastermind

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[Lythrilux]

I've already been very clear about why your "war machine" arguments are illogical, and I've been very clear about the zoner's right to be in places where they should physically be able to go to.

Clearly the thought was lacking as myself and others keep brining the point up.

I put thought into my posts. I try to word them carefully so as to deal with every situation, such as the lawfuls behind the planet, which is covered by "25k from bases" as the last time I checked planets are bases.

Behind the planet =/= the planet itself.

Over half of your arguments are already answered by my post, on issues such as "I'm sorry but that is just utterly ridiculous. You're implying that if we see a Zoner cap, it should be seen as oorp and not existing inRP. " in which I make it very clear - because on your current oorp rules, metaseeing a zoner cap on the chat list is enough to convict him for a sanction. In my rule change, I clearly state that Zoners should be allowed to enter house space, they should just do their best not to get caught by lawfuls.

So what's your point? You can't prove a sanction on someone such as that without ID evidence.
Do you really think Zoners are going to transition into an undercover faction?

"how will pushing them away from lanes, bases and gates make a difference?"
Really, that is self evident. 25k is a long way from the casual lawful patrol, unless it is specifically searching for something.

In [LN] we've carried out patrols that far.

"reveal their presence" is very vague. Under circumstances such as this we might start seeing zoners sanctioned for simply being spotted by lawfuls.
Yes it is. And it is supposed to, because Zoner caps are to take the maximum amount of precautions in keeping themselves out of the lawful's awareness. When I said "Should not be caught for", I meant "should not get themselves caught for".

If they don't want Lawfuls to spot them, surely it'd be better just to avoid house space entirely?

And why is it that zoners deserve to be punished for bringing their "warships" into house space in a time where everybody has warships? Are they to be punished merely for existing in house space?

Yep because it's against house laws.

Yes, Zoners deserve their "OP Diplomacy", that is their usp. I see now that you made these rule changes not to better the server, but to satisfy your personal ideas of how other players should play the game, with no regard for other people's enjoyment of the game even when it doesn't affect you. You don't explore options that benefit indie zoners, you're like the government, you see something wrong and then you use it as an excuse to take away freedoms in the name of other's welfare.

So what, I'm part of my own conspiracy now?
If Zoners have an advantageous privilege, such as OP diplomacy, they should be punished if they abuse that privllage. Come up with better counter-arguments please, I don't want this thread to be derailed into personal childish bickering again.

I put thought into my posts. I try to word them carefully so as to deal with every situation, and it's clear from your reply that you took precisely 0 brain power in reading my post, in even attempting to understand it. Your starting point was completely off from the "civilized discussion" you supposedly wanted and you never afforded it any merit in the first place.

I'm done with this thread.

Dumb posts deserve dumb answers I guess. It's fine if you leave the thread, your arguments didn't have any gravity to them anyway.

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[RedEclipse]

All capital ships are mistake, exception is only house-made bricks. I can't remember any case when zoner caps created alot of noise in house space in exception of ORI but it was so long time ago and never repeated. Also, if you don't like something, it's doesn't mean you should go on forums and ask for change and it'll be totally supprted, as this would cross interests of other players.

So if you are looking for a "real" background of all ships - you don't have to aim on zoner caps, many other factions have them without a real background/reason. Lets destroy what have been built for years and start making new only to satisfy your feeling what's crossing "RP logic"? Maybe you should rewrite engine for Freelancer too, as physics is not realistic too?