(03-07-2015, 12:49 PM)Yber Wrote: You're raving too much. If you think that reports are meant to harm others, then it's because that's what you use them for. The rules haven't changed for about 5 years now, at least not in a significant way. If anything, it is the playerbase.
Prisons and other institutes are not built to punish and serve as a man-made hell on earth for the Prisoners. They're meant to be a way to reform the prisoners and ensure that they won't commit any more crimes after their release. They're a means to help people who have done wrong, to try and get them to be a functioning member of society.
The sanctions system should be focused on helping people and ensure that they don't make any more slip ups in the future. Unfortunately, with our rules that almost seem like they're designed for club penguin, players use them to just spite other people.
http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=126949
Why as that even processed? All it takes is for either the reporter, or even the admins, to just poke Jack on skype or via the forums. Processing the report and making it a sanction was 100% not needed.
And it doesn't end there. The rule against swearing? Come on, we're not children. If you get sworn at, you need to be a very petty and very spiteful person to process a report. Swears exist in our society and are completely unavoidable. If you can't take someone saying the f-word, then I really think you need to take a break from the internet as a whole.
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(03-07-2015, 02:54 AM)Doc Holliday Wrote: Yes, it was I who sanctioned the [HF] based on something I heard that sounded pretty convincing... [Snip]
Let me just start by stating I've always found interacting with you on the forums and in-game a fun experience. But yeah:
(03-07-2015, 02:54 AM)Doc Holliday Wrote: based on something I heard that sounded pretty convincing.
So someone spread false rumors about a certain group that you acted upon prior to actually checking if the information provided was at all factual. Turns out it wasn't. Wouldn't it be correct to apologize for this hastily-, and poorly-made decision? If this sanction was caused by a player lying about another group out of ooRP hatred, would it perhaps not be appropriate to sanction this particular player rather than the group they tried to harm?
I have to be honest and say that most of your post also doesn't seem very applicable to the few 'cases' Omi brought up in the OP. I'm fairly sure [HF]'s member base is perfectly capable of speaking English and as such does not need to be bastilled to encourage them to communicate.
Not sure what to think about the "PvPwhoring rant" either. I myself spend (or spent) a great deal of time in this game shooting other players, while still enjoying quality roleplay a lot and actively looking for it. You act as if players who enjoy playing military or paramilitary/unlawful characters - and by extension shooting a lot - are somehow 'inferior' and should be looked down upon.
(03-07-2015, 01:08 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=126949
Why as that even processed? All it takes is for either the reporter, or even the admins, to just poke Jack on skype or via the forums. Processing the report and making it a sanction was 100% not needed.
We try not to enter into these pointless debates when everyone is not aware of all the facts. However certain areas thrive on throwing mud.
Jack was contacted first, he is aware of other parts to the report, it was given a warning only.
Wording is quite clear if you read it.
(03-07-2015, 12:49 PM)Yber Wrote: You take the comments that admins make on the sanctions as sarcastic, harmful and ironical, but you don't know if they are. It is true that there are more gentle ways to express themselves as for the sanctions so that it's not understood in the wrong way, but it is you who takes as a given they're being douches in the end.
Hey. I was probated because it were admins who read my comments as negative and hostile, why they weren't meant as such. I was even threatened that trying to explain myself would have gotten me more in trouble than simply waitin out 30 days. In the end, nobody actually managed to point out what I did bad, besides that staff interpreted it as bad.
So saying that they should be given leeway when they do not give it back is rather counter-productive to whole confidence thing.
Read what I wrote a bit back and how I have personally experienced what I perceive as failure from staff members to uphold their own standard in a very simple and straight forward ways.
(03-01-2015, 05:57 PM)Omicega Wrote: Any thoughts, boys and girls?
I only saw this thread now and Omi, I love you man! You are like a hero for doing this. Great to see someone finally step up when things are getting ridiculous around here. Saw it from Karst in another version that got him sanctioned sadly but love him too!
I agree completely with your original post and really hope they can refresh the admin team on Disco. It is seriously needed in my opinion.
EDIT: Oh and Garrett, you are by far my favorite admin in the team. Its not about whether you have made less mistakes than the others or not, its your attitude about doing something you volunteered to do in an appropriate manner. Not as an almighty law enforcer that prohibits even the most minor of things without asking why they happened first. I hope you stick around much longer because you are awesome.
(03-07-2015, 01:08 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: Prisons and other institutes are not built to punish and serve as a man-made hell on earth for the Prisoners. They're meant to be a way to reform the prisoners and ensure that they won't commit any more crimes after their release. They're a means to help people who have done wrong, to try and get them to be a functioning member of society.
The sanctions system should be focused on helping people and ensure that they don't make any more slip ups in the future. Unfortunately, with our rules that almost seem like they're designed for club penguin, players use them to just spite other people.
The new players are most often given the benefit of the doubt. In fact the first sanction someone gets is rather soft. Most of the players who still play have been doing so for years. They know the rules and they still break them. There's no need to reform somebody who breaks rules willingly: those get punished.
If you think that you can come up with a more fair and better set of rules, why don't you suggest it? I'm not being sarcastic or trying to be offensive.
Quote:http://discoverygc.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=126949
Why as that even processed? All it takes is for either the reporter, or even the admins, to just poke Jack on skype or via the forums. Processing the report and making it a sanction was 100% not needed.
And it doesn't end there. The rule against swearing? Come on, we're not children. If you get sworn at, you need to be a very petty and very spiteful person to process a report. Swears exist in our society and are completely unavoidable. If you can't take someone saying the f-word, then I really think you need to take a break from the internet as a whole.
Because official faction players are not special. They're treated like everybody else. If a player breaks a rule it doesn't matter who he is or where he belongs. He's the same than any indy and he should be reported and sanctioned. Check your privileges.
The rule against swearing is common sense. People swear when they're angry. Angry players are most often harmful for the game. We don't need that. Not to mention manners.
Edit:
Quote:Hey. I was probated because it were admins who read my comments as negative and hostile, why they weren't meant as such. I was even threatened that trying to explain myself would have gotten me more in trouble than simply waitin out 30 days. In the end, nobody actually managed to point out what I did bad, besides that staff interpreted it as bad.
So saying that they should be given leeway when they do not give it back is rather counter-productive to whole confidence thing.
Read what I wrote a bit back and how I have personally experienced what I perceive as failure from staff members to uphold their own standard in a very simple and straight forward ways.
I don't know what you've been doing these two years. In fact I just don't remember you particularly.
However, I do know most of the people sanctioned by that reasoning leave their posts to be interpreted, if not directly attempting to be funny making fun of somebody. When you do that during a certain amount of time it becomes obvious. The sanction was probably in place since you had probably been warned about being more careful with how you express yourself.
I'm aware that admins make mistakes and they're not always right, but from my own experience, they are a fairly high percentage of the time. And when they're not they're quick to correct themselves, which is what they obviously should do. I don't feel the need for anyone to apologize for as long as they fix what was done wrong, and if you do, you should (and I'm serious) check if you're after something more than having wrongs corrected.
(06-19-2016, 12:06 PM)Mao Wrote: inb4 Sirius gets renamed to XTF.
(03-07-2015, 01:08 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: And it doesn't end there. The rule against swearing? Come on, we're not children. If you get sworn at, you need to be a very petty and very spiteful person to process a report. Swears exist in our society and are completely unavoidable. If you can't take someone saying the f-word, then I really think you need to take a break from the internet as a whole.
It also makes little sense in RP for a Liberty Rogue to suddenly disappear out of existence for speaking like Rogues should.
I get what the rule is for though- the ooRP hate. However, players shouldn't be sanctioning for swearing inRP.
Like, come on. That makes little to no sense. If it's inRP it's likely that the person behind the swear didn't even mean it.
Was going to avoid posting here, since I didn't really have much to add, but... more points came up, more "wow really" expressions each time I read this, so screw it - Might as well through myself into the fire as well by posting here.
We're not perfect. We're human. We'll make mistake. As one of the newest members of the admin team, I see it many times, within the admin team as well. The hope/goal is, when a mistake happens, we own up to that fact. I've seen here and there hints and small comments from other admins apologizing for certain instances, but I assume you all want a bright large green text saying sorry? Well then here:
WE'RE SORRY FOR MISTAKES THAT HAVE, MAY, AND INEVITABLY WILL HAPPEN
Happy? Not sure what else we can do. You want to run around with pitchforks and demand we give up/drop out admin status? Whether you believe this or not, if a new batch came in, they would still make mistakes. They would still act on emotion at times. And people would yell at them for bias and for well, being human. We're not perfect, and any admin who says they make the perfect decision every time is 100% wrong. Hell, with the whole [HF] thing, many admins felt it was done on emotion, and was done too hastily. But since then, we all talked, and you know what we came up with? We're going to improve. We're going to enforce eachother to make the CORRECT decision, not the emotional decision. We're going to hold eachother more accountable that we have previously, and ensure that we ALL get a chance to review the evidence and vote on it/decide what course of action to take. Obviously things like "Someone was silently engaging people in Penn, and wouldn't respond to my PM's, so put him in Bastille until he can chat with us and we can explain the rules". Something blatant like that wouldn't necessarily require the entirety of the Admins to vote on, because that would take longer than a day and more than likely this guy would cause more troubles. Which is funny, cause then we'd have other community members yelling at us to do something, versus what you're yelling at us now for doing - acting fast to ensure that more harm doesn't come, and to be on the safe side.
With regards sanctions with false evidence, or people griefing others. Funny enough, some of the sanctions you see are many times against the reporter in the first place. You don't know that, since you don't see the violation report that comes in. But we have a pretty good eye (Not all the time mind you) of who is reporting someone just to get back at them for something. When we notice that, we either don't sanction the person the reporter wanted, OR we sanction HIM for false reporting/trolling/griefing/etc. So it happens WAY more than you think.
Another thing to keep in mind - We don't know which ship belongs to whom on the forums 75% of the time. So when a report comes in, and we see the evidence, we look at the screenshots, the timestamps, and then look through the ingame logs to find the conversation/RP and see the surrounding events, in case the report only has a small amount of evidence. Does that mean we get the whole picture? No. But we try to act on enough evidence from both the reporter as well as what we look up with our admin tools. Once a sanction goes through, and then the accused comes back with "Evidence please", we then know who the ship is that matches the forum account, which then means we can put a "face" to the ship(s), which then allows us to PM said person next time if something happens, or know who it is being reported. Now, once the accused is sent the evidence, we go through a PM discussion usually where the accused offers up his tale of the events, and perhaps gives us more evidence that we couldn't see from the screenshots initially or from the admin tools (BTW, the admin tools don't show "this ship fired at this time, etc etc etc". It is all lines of code or what not, or what we use most, lines of text said ingame, whether local, system wide, group chat or PM. THAT is what we look through) So we're not going to see the day before interaction proving the reporter guilty or something like that, until we're shown/told from the other side. If there is evidence supporting that the accused was either falsely charged, or that the reporter was in the wrong too, then we'll either reverse the sanction, or we'll sanction the reporter as well, as then BOTH would be in the wrong.
With the above? We do that for EVERY report. We have a rule that a minimum of 3 admins need to agree on a report to process it. We go through and look at the screenshots and see. Many reports don't go through since the evidence isn't clear. Or some we're only given partial evidence, and that's all we have to go on until someone shows us the alternate evidence (Again, since we don't know who is who in terms of ship 1 = <forum account here>, we can't ask the accused for his evidence since we don't know who that is). Keep in mind, it's super easy to revert ships credits or equipment, as it's not this "OMG MY CREDITS ARE GONE AND GUNS, I'M QUITTING". Calm down, in literally 30 seconds or less we can revert your stuff. It's not the end of the world.
Now, with regard the [HF] again, that was done hastily, with what was not 100% clear evidence. With Bastilling though, it's not a ban, it's not a sanction. It's a "Something fishy is going on or you're causing issues that we need address". Was it correct in this instance, I personally don't think so. But generally, that is what Bastilling is for.
I hope this gives you a little more understanding, and hope this helps. If not, I don't know what to tell you if you're after our throats. Frankly, I have a full time job already, and I want to play a game when I come home from a 10+ hour day at work and de-stress. I want to help this community/game, and want me and others to have fun in it, hence why I wanted to become an admin. I don't get paid for this, I don't get any benefit other than a desire to help others. Keep that in mind when people want our necks. It's a volunteer job, and it's hard to want to help people/this community thrive a little longer when we're constantly berated and told we're doing a bad job. I have better ways to de-stress, rather than add stress.
(03-07-2015, 01:08 PM)Lythrilux Wrote: And it doesn't end there. The rule against swearing? Come on, we're not children. If you get sworn at, you need to be a very petty and very spiteful person to process a report. Swears exist in our society and are completely unavoidable. If you can't take someone saying the f-word, then I really think you need to take a break from the internet as a whole.
Granted that in Society swear words are heard most days, this doesn't mean that it is acceptable. Swearing words have been around for hundreds of years and it was generally accepted that it wouldn't be used in polite Society. That these boundaries have been crossed over the years doesn't make it right. There is no need to swear (yes a lot of people do when they are angry) but it has now become so common place that people use it in normal conversation.
If the swear words were allowed on this Server then I could see that it wouldn't just be a rare word here and there but be quite prevalent (you only have to see some of the Skype Conversations that go on to get a taste of what the Game would be like). I for one would rather not see it happen.
I swear on occasions inRL, (and yes it isn't, as far as I am concerned acceptable) but when I am with people I generally refrain from doing it. It is called acceptable behaviour, so why shouldn't we expect that standard of behaviour within this Game?
'I would like to be half as clever as some people like to believe they are' Life is full of disappointments, it is how we handle them that helps to define us, as a person
My biggest problem among the Admins currently is Congress having an admin in their back pocket and running to her whenever they have a problem that they foolishly get themselves into. And then, said Admin, who is part of that faction, pushing their agenda on the rest of the Admins, with none of us being man enough to put a stop to it. I tried, but after a couple days of intense stress and lack of sleep, I have decided to step aside from the responsibility as I don't see an end to the bias and I don't wish to be a party to it.
Also, it would be nice when Admins vote on matters that negatively effect players/factions, that they take the time to talk with those individuals, explaining why actions were taken, instead of leaving it to the few who actually do take the time to do this. It sucked when I had to discuss why a vote went against someone, when I didn't even vote that way. This too has added to my stress. If you are going to make hard decisions, you need to take the time to have the tough conversations with the players you are affecting.
Sorry guys, but this has been bothering me and it needs to stop.