I feel for the Dev team here and can totally understand the lack of wanting to work with everything that is going on. I mean its like studying for a certificate that might not exist in a month.
The demands seem a little bit over the top but so was the bannings so I guess it balances nicely.
This strike is not about the people involved in the sanction, but you aren't going to believe that, just like I'm going to continue believing that Lyth and Impy are both cunts.
I also don't think there was sufficient evidence to ban said cunts, and I happen to believe that due process is a very important thing.
I can understand two of the names on the list being associated with the memespeak crew (Haste, Antonio) but their behaviour has been extremely professional about the entire situation.
I (guess?) its good that we're starting to resort to personal attacks though, as it shows how little weight there is to the side supporting the decision to keep the evidence locked away.
Is it really surprising that an unilateral ban of people without definite and clear reasoning [It appears so to a casual glance, at any rate...] would flare tempers and cause discontent? Especially on a gaming community that exists for the enjoyment of...you know, the people playing it. People tend to forget that in the large-scale arguments and big words and accusations that are painfully close to something I'd say about real-life issues, politics, and governance...
Let's try to be fair to everyone, here. The admins and devs are all volunteer, unpaid folk...but it is also important to remember that the operative word is 'volunteer.' Many have come and gone, many will continue coming and going. They're both quite important to keep the server running and things somewhat interesting for the playerbase...and again, the volunteer services exist for the benefit of the players. This is a video game. There is no other demographic to cater to. It's when the playerbase appears at seeming odds with the people who perform maintenance tasks as it were...things get dire, then.
Now then, I've called for stricter admin action against people who skirt the edge of the rules and make things rather un-fun for other players for a while. A fair few people have done so over the years. But if you're looking to weed people out for being detrimental like that...back it up. There's no need to rush these things out...gather evidence, and make your case for removing such players irrefutable. It's a regrettable state of affairs anyways, a dwindling community weeding out even a single member who had a constant interest in it is a loss that you won't ever fill. If people don't keep that in mind and end up doing the slamming regardless, you end up in a situation where people will (rightfully) believe that the ones entrusted with volunteer powers are enforcing their own view of who and what should be playing the game, and that is quite the problem. People who don't want to play that way will leave, and so the playerbase continues dwindling.
I do not speak for the strike-group as a whole in this post, but from my own, personal, perspective on the matter. I am only addressing Garret Jax's post. I also do not intent to attack anyone or sound derogatory, excuse me if I do.
(07-01-2016, 09:36 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: (...) The Admins, no matter what they finally decide to do, will still need the authority to enforce rules and protect gameplay. By setting this precedent of striking until you get what you demand, you undermine the authority the Admins need to perform their function. Without this authority, the Server will collapse upon itself and devolve into anarchy and very quickly, death. (...)
While I agree that the initial post made by Durandal is not a good example of how these terms can be worded, or a strike-like movement to be initiated, that is no reason to dismiss the core objective/intention behind it as undermining the administrations authority to, in justifiable context, regulate players actions on the server.
The very reason why the sanctions in question caused this uproar is that the presentation thereof made it look like abuse of power, especially in light of a recent post concerning transparency of admin actions as well as the internal "legislation" behind sanctions. As a result, other members of the staff, in this case the development team, decided to use this as opportunity to remind the administration that the power wielded by the administration also comes with the responsibility to do so within justifyable borders.
Far too vague statements and the, alledged, refusal to present actual evidence to the offenders suggests that this responsibility was not honored in any way or form.
None of the developers that are part of this strike, as far as I am aware, have any intention to become administrators themselves, or to prevent an administration team to perform their duties in the future.
(07-01-2016, 09:36 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: What will happen if this strike continues? Well, it's already starting to happen. Demands are being made for information that the Community is not entitled to have. If I were still Admin, there is no way I would agree to pass on confidential conversations to satisfy each and every Community member. First, there is no way to make everyone happy about each decision made by the Staff, and it would become impossible for the Admins to perform their jobs if they had to take the time to justify each and every decision that's made. Bottom line, the only people that are entitled to evidence leading to a person getting banned, is the banned player himself. Therefore, Demand#1 is unreasonable and outside your right to possess.
This whole list of demands is problematic. Where does it end? Until the Devs are satisfied? Until the whole Community is satisfied? I understand your complaint, trust me, but you are becoming just as 'guilty' as the Admins here, when you act outside your authority and make demands that you are not entitled to.
The demand is extremely badly worded, like all of them. They were drafted rashly, infact some people that are part of the strike were not around when it was done, hence why it sounds more like blackmailing, rather than basis for discourse. It's seems eerily similar to how some of the administation's decision looked to us. Truly awkward.
(07-01-2016, 09:36 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: The same goes with the demand for the thread to not be moderated. The Moderators need to do their job, if it is called for. The entire Server and forum needs structure to function appropriately.
I suppose the intention behind it was to prevent the thread and its replies, ones that are critical against recent events, to be unfairly silenced.
(07-01-2016, 09:36 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: Aside from this list of demands, and resulting strike, there are some other issues that need to be discussed. For one, any thought of replacing this staff with another "more competent" one, needs to be dismissed. I've seen enough members put on the Green jacket to know that different people will not change the dynamic of the how the server operates. I could go in length about how each new Green starts with energy and ideas to make the server better, gets pummeled by the Community a few times and then is fearful, then stops presenting ideas, then stops caring and then quits. It's happened to me before. It happens to everyone to some degree. New players will only inject even more inexperience into the Staff. We need to keep as many experienced staff members for the sake of the server.
Developers get flak just like the administration does, sometimes more, sometimes less. We're in the same boat in that regard. However I guess this was a reminder directed at the community as a whole, not us, and I can certainly relate to a degree.
(07-01-2016, 09:36 PM)Garrett Jax Wrote: What about this specific situation? How can the Community satisfy their sense of justice and get the Admins to take another look at things? Well, Tunicle has already stated that the Admins are reexamining the matter. I would strongly advise you to give them time. I would be willing to bet that the evidence pool that brought them to this decision is probably pretty scant. There is also human pride to consider. It will take them time to swallow it. This set of demands would piss me off and make me want to unplug the server. I suggest you give the Admins a week to come forward with a course of action they deem wise. (...)
And what would have happened without the community/staff uproar? It's unlikely that the administration would have reconsidered their decision if it wasn't for a third party that pushed for it. There is no denying that, incase the sanctions get revisited on the basis of insufficient evidence, the actions that pushed for such a result were in some form justified.
As a final note on my reply, while I disagree with the manner in which this strike was executed, I am still very much in favor of making sure that the offenders see sufficient evidence for their bans, which, to my knowledge, they did not; regardless of my relationship with any of the offenders.
Normally bans do not call for strikes or any similar action, however, it calls for the ultima ratio when the integrity of the guidelines set by the same administration are obviously violated.
(07-01-2016, 10:29 PM)Clavius Wrote: Though, it makes me wonder, would the community react the same if this happend to a few "randoms" rather then people with a lot of friends?
Probably not to be honest, that doesn't mean the actions are ok to make.
Though this 'strike' does go too far. Rather what needs to happen in order to make people feel better is:
-> Give the specific evidence to the people that have been banned so that they have a chance to defend themselves and explain their pov within the rules.
-> Take into consideration when punishing people, their actions in relation to the supposed rules broken as well as their past behaviour in order to hand out a fair punishment, as opposed to killing 6 birds with 1 stone.
And in the future:
->Talk to the people involved prior to banning them to try and reach a conflict resolution.
Banning people should be a last resort, once everything else has failed. In addition in order to be somewhat fair (I say somewhat bcos disco is not a democracy, it never has been and likely never will be), it is appropriate to allow the accused a chance to defend themselves against the evidence supplied. This means people that are unfairly/wrongly/mistakenly hit with bans don't have their whole experience ruined because of what essentially could have been a mistake which would not otherwise have been picked up on without knowing that persons pov.
That being said, if we want to achieve this then this is certainly not the way to go about it. Yes I agree shout about it, make suggestions, call the admins unfair for not implementing these points but there is no point in making demands like this at the admins. If you feel that they have ruined this game for you then say that and walk away, all that these 'demands' do is cause a rift between the admin/dev teams. It doesn't actually bring the conflict to a resolution, every side just feels more compelled to stay the course that they are already on. Clearly that is a no win situation, because the 2 teams are headed in opposite directions. Rather you need to compromise.
Clearly the evidence isn't going to be given to every individual, nor should the dev team get final say over what happens. That is the role of the admin team. Rather ask that the admin team hands the evidence over to the 6 that were hit with the bans and that they be allowed a chance to defend themselves. Say that without that you don't feel that you can remain apart of this community. However don't go around making demands, the admins are not accountable to you and if you make a demand at someone they are 10x less likely to listen you, regardless of whether or not you are right.
(07-01-2016, 10:56 PM)Danny-boy Wrote: Though this 'strike' does go too far. Rather what needs to happen in order to make people feel better is:
-> Give the specific evidence to the people that have been banned so that they have a chance to defend themselves and explain their pov within the rules.
-> Take into consideration when punishing people, their actions in relation to the supposed rules broken as well as their past behaviour in order to hand out a fair punishment, as opposed to killing 6 birds with 1 stone.
You say the strike goes too far and then you ask for the same things we're asking for. That seems a little contradictory.
(07-01-2016, 10:56 PM)Danny-boy Wrote: That being said, if we want to achieve this then this is certainly not the way to go about it. Yes I agree shout about it, make suggestions, call the admins unfair for not implementing these points but there is no point in making demands like this at the admins.
So making idle accusations is fine, and backing them up isn't?
(07-01-2016, 10:56 PM)Danny-boy Wrote: If you feel that they have ruined this game for you then say that and walk away
This is exactly the kind of toxic attitude - mostly coming from the administration - that we believe is damaging the server. Have you seen the max server pop lately? Now is not the time to be telling anyone to walk away if they don't like it here.
(07-01-2016, 10:56 PM)Danny-boy Wrote: all that these 'demands' do is cause a rift between the admin/dev teams. It doesn't actually bring the conflict to a resolution, every side just feels more compelled to stay the course that they are already on. Clearly that is a no win situation, because the 2 teams are headed in opposite directions. Rather you need to compromise.
If I were on the other side of the table I can't say that I would feel very compelled to stay the course when the team that develops the game I administrate is threatening to cease development. Freelancer came out in 2003, you're not going to find active and interested developers for this game anymore. In fact, the only people on the devteam that know how to do something as simple as make a hitbox are on strike.
(07-01-2016, 10:56 PM)Danny-boy Wrote: Clearly the evidence isn't going to be given to every individual, nor should the dev team get final say over what happens. That is the role of the admin team.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. Look it up.
(07-01-2016, 10:56 PM)Danny-boy Wrote: Rather ask that the admin team hands the evidence over to the 6 that were hit with the bans and that they be allowed a chance to defend themselves. Say that without that you don't feel that you can remain apart of this community. However don't go around making demands, the admins are not accountable to you and if you make a demand at someone they are 10x less likely to listen you, regardless of whether or not you are right.
The administration actually providing evidence to the banned individuals would definitely be a start. It's clear however that they have no concern about the health of the server's population. Threatening to leave if I disagree with their decision doesn't do anything, since last I checked they (and you) are encouraging it. I'm fighting, demanding evidence here, because I don't want everything I've worked on to go to waste, to be threatened by the actions of an organization of which I have no control over. This is all that myself and the other people striking have is leverage. That is, after all, the point of a strike.
While I can understand the concerns that led to this thread, the problem is that the timing/delivery of this ultimatum effectively took the opportunity away from the admins to make the next move based solely on their ongoing internal discussions of the community's feedback. I'd imagine that they would now feel that the community will believe that any actions they might come forward with to improve the situation are not just a result of the community's feedback, but also (or potentially more so) due to this ultimatum. That could make them feel like they have even less chance of really repairing the situation, maintaining/regaining credibility, or maybe even feel that their positions are untenable. Or it might just cause anger, with same end result - there are already some admin casualties so far. This ultimatum should have been delivered to the admins in private first so that they had the opportunity to respond directly to the devs and make their next move to restore confidence and order in a way that didn't undermine their motives for doing so in the eyes of the community, and then publically like this as a last resort if that didn't work. Transparency and full-disclosure is great, but tact is still needed in situations like this to maintain delicate balances and give people the opportunities they deserve. I'm hoping to see some restraint and patience towards the admins for the moment as I'd imagine they might be feeling like the walls are closing in.
And at the same time any of the stuff that happened over the last 2 days hasn't touched or influenced 90% of our active playerbase and they are playing the game and having fun, completely oblivious of what is going on here.
Unlike you salt-butts who think that any of this is worth discussing or worrying about. As if posting in any of these threads will accomplish anything.
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