(11-04-2017, 02:11 PM)Erzie Wrote: As far as my department goes, I have been trying to find ways to give progression without doing linear ship/asset progression, People should be encouraged to build a character and be attached to a ship, and I believe I have found an outlet to be announced at a later date.
As for the characters that have basically no depth, there is nothing foreseeable that we, as devs, can do for the 10 minute log assets. Though anonymity creates a healthier PvP environment that is live with action, it doesnt do much else but evade consequences. This is primarily a community issue, as all we can do is incentivize the idea of having a character with depth, and cannot force it. SRP’s have always been a part of that incentive, as well as the perks behind official factions.
As much as we would like to give everyone their own special toy, we simply do not have the dev power to carry that out in a timely manner; hell, how long have Unioners been waiting for their turrets? I digress, the motivation of players to invest time and effort into this mod is purely voluntary. It lies with the community to make it a healthy environment, meanwhile as devs we get you at least some of those special toys.
I feel like you didnt understand a single thing I said.
I don't want "special toys", not for me or for anyone else. Hell, I wish you would STOP wasting your time making "special toys" for certain people and finally address the fundamental issues which are have been having a continually having bad effect on gameplay and population.
Yes, as devs you ABSOLUTELY have influence and responsibility over the "10-minute log assets" aspect and anonymity and the health of the game environment, because you are the ones that decide what actions are made worthwhile for players.
You can help players stick to the same character more by giving single characters more things to do on that character (to name a few: being able to mine in more places as well as mine/protect/escort traders on the same char, being able to hunt or pirate in more places, and being able to get to those places)
You can balance weapons so noobs actually have a chance and a use against vets in PvP.
You can speed up the learning curves by adding more ingame help.
I can't tell if you're genuinely unaware of your responsibility or if you're just trying to dodge it.
I am personally of the opinion that no 'non-interaction' based measures will have anything save for a minimal effect on helping new players. When thinking back to both my own start plying Disco and watching others learn, one only really starts to cut one's RP teeth in interactions with other people around.
And there are people around. From experience, whenever I've PMed random people for help on occasion in-game, I have always had a really positive response. Yes, sometimes people are too busy to reply, but on the whole I don't think that people are unhelpful for the sake of being unhelpful. The shame of it is that a new person doesn't know this, especially if there are no specifically-labelled 'helpers' around.
I don't know if this could be implemented, and it would need its own rules to avoid being abused, but perhaps it would be an idea to have a clearly defined and advertised 'help' channel in-game, /h like we have /s or /f etc that sends a message server-wide, then willing people can respond via PM.
I agree that PvP (and often the circumstances leading up to it) can leave a bad impression, and I have no answer to the difference in PvP skill other than to go easy on new players; I don't understand how one could balance a weapon for a new player when all weapons are available to all players.
This ended up being a Wall of Text, because I had so much to say. So if you are lazy, I'm sorry, but I cannot TL;DR this. I've at least taken the liberty of dividing my post in half to cover the sudden topic shift.
On the subject of PvP weapons and such, Heavy Flashpoints are my bread and butter right now on any ship. 750m/s on a 5.00 gun is wonderful, and something I wish had existed back when I was a rookie to pvp. Back in 4.83-4.84, Freelancers had the standard Flashpoints and Purple Goddess Chain Guns to work with, and that was it. The fact that civilian guns now exist for every house and allow Freelancers to use them is great! Thanks to the consolidation of HF/VHF guns all into one class, Freelancers (Which I assume most newbies play the most, since they can fly anywhere) now have access to a total of 11 different types of guns, all at 100% or 90%, which is still viable to work with.
Teaching rookies how to weapon group can make a big difference, as it helped up my game when I learned about how to do it. Weapon grouping feels like a thing many folks take for granted, but it is absolutely essential to know how to use them to prevent yourself from mixing up weapon speeds. Before weapon grouping, I was running around on a Moldy Crow firing Xeno weapons mixed with debs, totaling 7 guns, and running out of core in less than 3 seconds. I would manually turn my debs off via clicking when shields went down before weapon grouping - trust me, it makes a huge difference.
That is one thing I miss about the old tech system. When you needed to obtain permission from a faction to use their guns in order to avoid a sanction, it gave you something to strive towards for a specific character. Nowadays, if I wanted to get my same Blossom with Bretonian Dissolvers, I'd have to pay 250,000,000 credits for said setup on a 100% ship. Back in 2010, I did this with about 4 months of dedicated work via RP relations, got the permissions, and bam, had myself a one-of-a-kind ship that no one else on the server had, the only cost being mostly time - no SRP-fee required.
That's the double-edged blade of the SRP system. It lets a lot of players use weapons they normally wouldn't have access to, no RP necessary, but they'll receive a tech nerf if it's an odd ID/weapon combination. If you want something special at 100%, you have to SRP it, and RPPvP SRPs are held to a far higher standard than I think some newbies or English as a Second Language players are capable of and/or motivated to achieve.
With SRPs, you have to wait on a Staff vote from Devs/Mods/Admins, with at least one Admin being involved. Sometimes it can take a while for SRPs to be processed, in some cases, months. If the request fails, your 250,000,000 is wasted, and now your SRP cost is up to 500,000,000 on the 2nd attempt.
In the old system, all you needed was the permission of the faction lead owning the technology you desired in order to use it. The cost could have been credits in some cases, but in many cases it was paid for in loyalty.
I doubt we'd go back to the old system after having the current one in place for such a long time, but.. At the very least, maybe a separate in-game commodity explaining what technerfs are would be beneficial. "Tech Efficiency and You" seems an appropriate name. It could include specific examples of technology use for a Freelancer, a factional pirate, and a member of a Military, as well as a brief explanation of how technology compatibility works. "For a list of all factions and which weapons they may use efficiently, refer to discoverygc.com. Look for Player Utilities at the top of the forum, then select Technology Chart.[/b]"
To cover the OP of "Early Noob Activities":
Competitive non-ore trade routes.
Seriously.
It's about time that we had something compete with ore that isn't an ore. Not just routes that are "almost as good as ore," but ones that are fully lawful and just as profitable. The problem with mining is that in order to RP while mining, you literally have to stop shooting just to type proficiently. Frequently, once full, the ore hauler begins their treck alone and with no one to speak with, since it's more efficient for the miner ship to continue mining and filling up other transports and/or nearby POBs. At the very least, while trading, if you see a transport in a hurry, you can always switch to system chat to encourage them to do the same while they are riding the lanes. Isn't that more interesting than alt-tabbing?
Trading encourages players to get out there as opposed to sitting in the "safety" of a remote mining field. If a player visits a mining field so often that they can recognize individual static asteroids which are supposed to be random and identical to one another, it's time to encourage said player to move on and sight-see. Money is evil, but it is unfortunately necessary. The moment you step into capital/battle transport combat, you realize that you're basically handicapped until you have at least a Cap 7 to compete with the PvP-focused players. As someone who enjoys RP'ing and PvP'ing, it is important to be able to shove a bully's words back in their mouth with guns at times. Discovery suffers something that Warcraft used to suffer - Gear Dependency. If you don't have the best armor upgrade, or "gear" in PvP, you may as well sit down and sit out, because high skill can only get you so far when you face somebody with a bigger wallet.
Final point: If Cap 8's are viewed as necessary for PvP, then why are they still so expensive?
@sindroms and I often discussed ways to make things easier for new players to get started. In the next patch there will be two buoys with custom models for the Newbie Guide and Rule Summary outside Erie as well as another buoy in the Helium Field marking it as a mineable zone. It's fairly basic but it's a testbed for a more advanced version.
I don't agree about removing certain restarts. Your example about swapping IDs shows that this would only lead to pointless tedium for players trying to get the rep they want. It would be nice to use the info selling ability of NPCs, but actually setting it up is somewhat tedious and it's unlikely to be used (because most of them are junk) unless it's for a hidden base like Airdrie or Fort Leniex.
Also IMO, AU8s or something like that should be a default part of snub packages. A lot of newbie players try to do PVP with no armour and get destroyed instantly.
(11-27-2017, 06:35 PM)Xalrok Wrote: @sindroms and I often discussed ways to make things easier for new players to get started. In the next patch there will be two buoys with custom models for the Newbie Guide and Rule Summary outside Erie as well as another buoy in the Helium Field marking it as a mineable zone. It's fairly basic but it's a testbed for a more advanced version.
I don't agree about removing certain restarts. Your example about swapping IDs shows that this would only lead to pointless tedium for players trying to get the rep they want. It would be nice to use the info selling ability of NPCs, but actually setting it up is somewhat tedious and it's unlikely to be used (because most of them are junk) unless it's for a hidden base like Airdrie or Fort Leniex.
Also IMO, AU8s or something like that should be a default part of snub packages. A lot of newbie players try to do PVP with no armour and get destroyed instantly.
Oh, neat! I look forward to seeing those buoys, then. As for AU8s being a standard part of ship packages, that would be phenomenal. Likely what you could do is create a separate AU8 commodity with a sell price of 1 credit, so as to prevent exploiting. Or, we could just nerf the price of non-cap armor across the board to compensate, which'd be nice to see. Personally, I think that Heavy/Cap armor upgrade prices should be nerfed as well, with factions receiving a single Cap 9, x5.0 armor upgrade to signify their "Flag Ship," as an update to one of the Official Faction Privileges.
(11-27-2017, 03:55 PM)Karlotta Wrote: I feel like you didnt understand a single thing I said
You can balance weapons so noobs actually have a chance and a use against vets in PvP.
You can speed up the learning curves by adding more ingame help.
I can't tell if you're genuinely unaware of your responsibility or if you're just trying to dodge it.
No I understand, I just disagree. Also “responsibility” is a strong word for a voluntary, unpaid position. Yes the devs should put creating a healthy environment first where they can.
(11-27-2017, 04:31 PM)Rickard Steiner Wrote: I am personally of the opinion that no 'non-interaction' based measures will have anything save for a minimal effect on helping new players.
...
From experience, whenever I've PMed random people for help on occasion in-game, I have always had a really positive response. Yes, sometimes people are too busy to reply, but on the whole I don't think that people are unhelpful for the sake of being unhelpful. The shame of it is that a new person doesn't know this, especially if there are no specifically-labelled 'helpers' around.
A more elaborate ingame help is not only something that people can use when they dont want to bother someone they dont know with questions, it's also something that they can be referred to by people who want to help but who dont have the time for it at the moment. There are many things that people who want to spend time helping other people can still teach them.
(11-27-2017, 04:31 PM)Rickard Steiner Wrote: I don't know if this could be implemented, and it would need its own rules to avoid being abused, but perhaps it would be an idea to have a clearly defined and advertised 'help' channel in-game, /h like we have /s or /f etc that sends a message server-wide, then willing people can respond via PM.
Apart from being a terrible and difficult to implement idea, the person answering would end up typing the things that are written in the ingame help system Laz has implemented in FLHook today over and over and over again anyway.
(11-27-2017, 04:31 PM)Rickard Steiner Wrote: I agree that PvP (and often the circumstances leading up to it) can leave a bad impression, and I have no answer to the difference in PvP skill other than to go easy on new players;
There would be a second fairly easy answer: Side with noobs in PvP instead of siding exclusively with your ace buddies. And a third one too: Don't whine, smear, and "revenge-gank" noobs non-stop because they allegedly ganked you with numbers and larger ships although they still end up losing to you anyway.
However, the sad reality in discovery is that those two concepts seem to be impossible to grasp for the overwhelming majority of aces in discovery.
Also, to some of those aces "going easy on noobs" means "group with 2 more aces looking for single noobs, then let one ace beat the noob up while the other two taunt and insult the noob and only interfere if he tries to run, get backup, or manages to land a few hits with a missile, in which case you'll gather 4 more aces to chase the same noob around Newark Station the following two days", instead of doing the same with the difference that the other two aces engage without waiting for the guy to do something that might give him a chance of survival.
(11-27-2017, 04:31 PM)Rickard Steiner Wrote: I don't understand how one could balance a weapon for a new player when all weapons are available to all players.
Weapons that don't require aimbot-like aim to hit. Missiles, for example.
(11-27-2017, 06:35 PM)Xalrok Wrote: @sindroms and I often discussed ways to make things easier for new players to get started. In the next patch there will be two buoys with custom models for the Newbie Guide and Rule Summary outside Erie as well as another buoy in the Helium Field marking it as a mineable zone. It's fairly basic but it's a testbed for a more advanced version.
It's commendable that you do something, but that will only help people in Pennsylvania. A FLHook help system is available everywhere, can be referred to everywhere, and can be read while trading.
(11-27-2017, 06:35 PM)Xalrok Wrote: I don't agree about removing certain restarts. Your example about swapping IDs shows that this would only lead to pointless tedium for players trying to get the rep they want. It would be nice to use the info selling ability of NPCs, but actually setting it up is somewhat tedious and it's unlikely to be used (because most of them are junk) unless it's for a hidden base like Airdrie or Fort Leniex.
The "tedious setting up process" used to be the fun part of playing Freelancer/Discovery for the first time. Having the best gear available at only a certain place would add a little exploration incentive again though.
Setting up 20+ chars is actually something that should be avoided, and making setting up more difficult is something that will help avoid it. Having too many chars leads to less attachment, more anonymity (which is good for TS-using trolling vets but bad for noobs who are trying to make friends), and worse RP.
(11-27-2017, 06:35 PM)Xalrok Wrote: Also IMO, AU8s or something like that should be a default part of snub packages. A lot of newbie players try to do PVP with no armour and get destroyed instantly.
The snubs should get more base armor then, and the upgrades be made smaller (although still somewhat expensive) to compensate. Slowly upgrading your ship your ship more and more over time (they can be small expensive upgrades, but still upgrades) is an incentive to play and to build up the same char.
(11-27-2017, 07:49 PM)Erzie Wrote: No I understand, I just disagree. Also “responsibility” is a strong word for a voluntary, unpaid position.
The moment you dress yourself with a "dev" or "lead" position, you are accepting the responsibility.
Taking such a position and not taking the responsibility for it is worse than not taking the position at all.
You're not responsible for what you predecessors did (although people acting like they invented Freelancer multiplayer because they tweaked some aspect of it has been a thing for certain people in disco), but you're responsible for what you do or don't do while you're in that position. If you don't have time to do what is necessary, you should let someone else do it, or at least direct people to how they can do or help with those things.
