4.90.1 Initial - Retribution

[Enkidu]

Oh, yeah. I forgot to even mention the trainwreck of a wiki that Disco has going for it as well. It's so out of date and barebones that it's not even funny, it's just tragic.

I cannot name a single game-with-roleplay-elements-attached that I've played where I didn't check the wiki obsessively to learn how things worked. Imagine trying to do the same on Discovery. You'd either give up out of frustration or make the best of the dumpster fire as it currently sits and wind up with entirely the wrong idea about more or less anything.

Everyone should update the content they know about.

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[sasapinjic]

It is endless circle, as long things will not change, AALLLLLLLLLL those Biter-veterans refuse to log-in, and, in same time, people in charge dont give a damn and stubornly refuse to change things.

That is an issue. So-called 'bittervets' who don't log but unfortunately jump on every forum thread to lower the tone. I'm not particularly sure why. There's no fun to find in the game by simply harassing the community.

No fun, but there is a GOAL!
I guess you can call it strike action, works well in situations when people in charge refuse to lisen, so, since situation is similar, they dont wont to play but, they do Bug forums to remind people in charge why they dont play, and that they will not start playing until there demand are, at last partialy futfilled!

Wiki:

Strike action, also called labor strike , labour strike, or simply strike, is a work stoppage caused by the mass refusal of employees to work. A strike usually takes place in response to employee grievances. Strikes became common during the Industrial Revolution, when mass labor became important in factories and mines. In most countries, strike actions were quickly made illegal, as factory owners had far more power than workers. Most Western countries partially legalized striking in the late 19th or early 20th centuries.

Strikes are sometimes used to pressure governments to change policies. Occasionally, strikes destabilize the rule of a particular political party or ruler; in such cases, strikes are often part of a broader social movement taking the form of a campaign of civil resistance. Notable examples are the 1980 Gdańsk Shipyard or 1981 Warning Strike, led by Lech Wałęsa. These strikes were significant in the long campaign of civil resistance for political change in Poland, and were an important mobilizing effort that contributed to the fall of the Iron Curtain and the end of communist party rule in eastern Europe.

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[Enkidu]

The problem lies in that the changes they often lobby for are simply uninventive rollbacks to a time when certain ships and equipment were objectively overpowered and under balanced.


They're wasting years of their life on a pointless exercise to modify stats in a niche, ancient gaming community. Wierd

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[sasapinjic]

The problem lies in that the changes they often lobby for are simply uninventive rollbacks to a time when certain ships and equipment were objectively overpowered and under balanced.


They're wasting years of their life on a pointless exercise to modify stats in a niche, ancient gaming community. Wierd

No, most of changes they wish are ones that Karlotta mention(newbies friendy game, reduce skill influence, faction changes, etc) , only few people wants those you mention (like those "i want my battlecruiser OP again" crying ).

[TheJarl]

I feel like two different discussions are somehow mixed up here and that bugs me.

First of all, I actually completely agree that Disco is very noob-unfriendly and that this is a big problem especially without an enormous population. It was arguably even worse in the past but vets would help out new players. That's what happened to me when I started, I had no idea and then someone explained some things to me and gave me some credits to get me started, without that I would have no idea what to do. At the moment only Pennsylvania 'works' so to speak. Helium-mining is the first step really and it can serve as a sort of introduction to the economy, but also lawful and unlawful interactions. The progression of mining helium, buying a bit better ship etc. however ends real quick and then suddenly it's all unclear and all the same.

However, I would also like to point out that cutting content does not fix that in any way. Removing a niche faction doesn't improve the experience of new players, nor does the removal of far off, systems that are barely populated. They might not add much, but neither does removing them because they were not popular anyway so they didn't detract from the hotspots. If we want more 'meat' and less 'fat', I can absolutely get behind that, but just removing supposed 'fat' without adding 'meat' does not do that by itself. It just removes some niches and does not add anything. Better content instead of more I agree on, but better content does not have to mean less content and less content on itself does not make what's left better.

So, yeah I can actually get behind a lot of points made by Karlotta and DVR and that's exactly why I don't think cutting content is the solution.

[Death.RunningVerminator]

I think you must have only read the beginning of our discussion because later i realized that systems were in fact cut or merged already and i didn't know that previously. I would probably take more drastic measures myself if i had the power to do so, however that is simply what me personally would do, and not really what i would recommend us doing right now. I think the idea of adding meat and focusing on a noob-friendly experience should take priority.

Also, i do not think Karlotta simply proposed cutting things, i think she/he offered more ideas than that.

[TheJarl]

I think you must have only read the beginning of our discussion because later i realized that systems were in fact cut or merged already and i didn't know that previously. I would probably take more drastic measures myself if i had the power to do so, however that is simply what me personally would do, and not really what i would recommend us doing right now. I think the idea of adding meat and focusing on a noob-friendly experience should take priority.

Also, i do not think Karlotta simply proposed cutting things, i think she/he offered more ideas than that.

Sorry, I did not intend to imply that you two were suggesting cutting, but some others were and the discussion then moved away from the cutting thing so I just wanted to point out that the later part of the discussion does not resolve the first part so to speak.

[Firestalker Drones]

Pump your brakes, please. Everyone.

I think you are all forgetting something very specific to Discovery. Discovery Mod uses Freelancer as a roleplay platform. The game was never BUILT for this purpose and as such, coupled with the fact that there are many things we cannot mod into it, we are forced to employ these rules.

The way they are written right now and presented to the players, is not out of malace or ill-coordination, but out of necessity. These rules are also, let us face it honestly enough, meant more for the veteran players - not the newbie ones. They are there to keep power-players in check. Players who have the time and drive to have huge impact on the ingame world.
I have looked over Karlotta's rewrites and suggestions and I will say exactly what I told DRV in PM - the suggested changes are a trap that Disco has gone through 3 times now. Every single time we try to simplify the rules, we end up creating new issues with them. Issues not for new players, but loopholes that can be exploited by players who can and want to. Out of malice or out of principle. Players who cannot be punished directly for doing so because - as you might guess, their defense in this case is that punishing someone retroactively for breaking rules that did not physically exist would cause a community uproar. And again - not because it is something to be outraged about, but because we have a community that loves to jump on bandwagon issues.

Even now, the whole malarkey of the rules rewrite for the sake of newbies. Why are you focusing on that one aspect? Why aren't you logging into the game and helping the players directly. Why aren't you keeping the Wiki up to date. Rules are a HUGE isssue and one that will remain forever. Stop focusing on them and instead fix the surrounding ones first.

Do I really need to remind you all what happened last time a ''enthusiastic player'' rewrote the server rules by themselves? We had to re-roll the rules and it took two years to do so, because they were being patched as new and new idioticy began cropping up.

Rules cannot be generalized. They cannot be simplified, because their only reason for existing is to establish what a player can and cannot do in order to make our server habitable. I think this is the biggest issue people are failing to grasp. The point of the server rules is to keep players in check in a way game mechanics cannot. We simplify the rules to the point where we end up needing to put in specifications and asterisks for every single one. How many times do we need to go through this to understand that rules cannot by their definition be vague.


Discovery Freelancer is like Dwarf Fortress. Once you figure it out, you will have a grand time. But in the case where DF has game mechanics, we have the Server Rules. The best we can have is a comprehensive guide around them ala DF Wiki for players who are interested in putting at least SOME effort into figuring out the game to do so on their own. Or to have players willing to help them do so. Discovery is Complex. That is just how it is and it is not going to be for everybody.


Right now I am the most worried that this whole situation is going to turn into the following:

A player has spent his time and effort, without knowing that the admin section has half a dozen threads regarding rule changes and tweaks, to rewrite the server rules. A player who seems to exhibit an attitude of ''Fine, if they cannot be bothered, I will do it all myself and if they (staff) cannot implement these changes even when they are presented to them on a silver plate, it means they are inept/lazy/don't care.'' And no amount of explanation will be able to change their mind. And everyone who has benefit from agreeing with them, regardless of their thoughts on the rewrite, will hoist up their banners and split the community apart just for the fun of it. Again.

Spazzy.


Also, beep, etc.






.

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[Karlotta]

It was arguably even worse in the past but vets would help out new players.

There were and are people helping new players, now there are only less of them because there are less players in general.

The biggest problem (now and before) is and was that devs did next to NOTHING to make the mod attractive to noobs. No ingame help about central game concepts in any shape or form, everything balanced to be 100% comfy for vets with 0 regards to noobs in everything.

The second biggest problem (now and before) is that both unwritten pvp rules and gear balance intentionally prevent fun and respect for noobs in order to maximize it for da official superpros who's fun is more important than other people's.

However, I would also like to point out that cutting content does not fix that in any way. Removing a niche faction doesn't improve the experience of new players, nor does the removal of far off, systems that are barely populated.

Unfortunately some of the devs seem to be so far "out of touch" that it's amazing. Two months after you could see devs who STILL thought spreading players out among factions, routes, and systems was a good idea in 2017, they delete a faction that had someone actively reviving it with lots of efforts put into quality RP, "because too many factions". While all everyone REALLY needed to do (for over 5 years now) is to STOP THEIR EFFORTS to spread everything out with equally spaced jump connections, 100 equally profitable trade routes, overly and uselessly strict tech nerfs that accomplish nothing but confuse and annoy noobs, and mining that's balanced so it makes everyone create 20 mining chars all in different factions and different places. Those thing made sense in 4.85 and 4.84, but stopped making sense when population dropped below 150.

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[Karlotta]

Dear “Spazzy”,

The game was never BUILT for this purpose and as such, coupled with the fact that there are many things we cannot mod into it, we are forced to employ these rules.

Nobody said that these rules aren’t, or weren’t, needed. Your argument is a strawman.

The way they are written right now and presented to the players, is not out of malace or ill-coordination, but out of necessity.

Having rules so obsolete that they still mention guard systems is not a necessity.

Using 4510 words instead of 2623 to say the exact same things is not a necessity.

Having rules organized in bad way when they can be organized in a much better way is not a necessity.

Not having the actual rules accessible directly ingame, whether it’s using 4510, 2623, or 1593 words, is not a necessity. Especially considering that rules haven’t changed for years, that there’s a game patch every few weeks, and that it takes 5 minutes to copy paste the rules from the forum into infocards.

None of them are necessities unless one considers it a necessity for rules to be known exclusively by vets so they can abuse new players by using their lack of knowledge against them.

There is no subjectivity to any of this, nor are there valid hidden reasons that allow only admins to know why fixing them is impossible, as you try to make people believe.

These rules are also, let us face it honestly enough, meant more for the veteran players - not the newbie ones. They are there to keep power-players in check. Players who have the time and drive to have huge impact on the ingame world.

Rules are for everyone, or there can be no consensus holding people together as a community. The failure to understand this (or honestly admit it out of petty personal motives) is the failure that lies at the core of discovery’s largest problems.

I have looked over Karlotta's rewrites and suggestions and I will say exactly what I told DRV in PM - the suggested changes are a trap that Disco has gone through 3 times now.

You’re either intentionally misrepresenting things, or you’ve not looked over them closely enough to notice that only the rules which were 100% obsolete were removed, and that the rest were merely made easier to understand, shorter to read, easier to overview, and easier to access. If that wasn’t the case, you could have pointed to instances where it wasn’t, like everyone was asked to do. Because all proof readers and apparently everyone else who commented was able to notice what you apparently didn’t notice, it’s more likely that you’re just being dishonest.

Every single time we try to simplify the rules, we end up creating new issues with them. Issues not for new players, but loopholes that can be exploited by players who can and want to. Out of malice or out of principle. Players who cannot be punished directly for doing so because - as you might guess, their defense in this case is that punishing someone retroactively for breaking rules that did not physically exist would cause a community uproar. And again - not because it is something to be outraged about, but because we have a community that loves to jump on bandwagon issues.

If those you call “we” were unable to make rules that can’t be exploited, it’s a problem that they produced. It’s not a problem that I or the people who contributed constructively to the re-write produced. If those you call “we” were really unable to properly write rules themselves and were “forced” to stick to rules from 2007 that talk about guard systems, that’s rather alarming. And it’s again one of the core problems of this community that must be addressed if it wants a brighter future.

If those you call “we” were unable to even consider putting rules intended to prevent vets from abusing loop-holes in a place that doesn’t force every newbie to read through it before they can learn the basics, that’s also something that must be talked about, whether you like it or not.

Even now, the whole malarkey of the rules rewrite for the sake of newbies.

The “malarkey” is not only for the newbies, although making rules easily understandable for them is extremely important for improving their experience to raise the server population.

That being said, it’s not only for the benefit of newbies. It’s also for vets and admins who take it upon themselves to inform newbies of the rules, who have to deal with people who don’t know the rules every day. Even those unable or unwilling to understand this will benefit from it. Unless they’re the kind of person who wants newbies to not know the rules so they’re left at the mercy of the people who do.

Why are you focusing on that one aspect? Why aren't you logging into the game and helping the players directly. Why aren't you keeping the Wiki up to date. Rules are a HUGE isssue and one that will remain forever. Stop focusing on them and instead fix the surrounding ones first.

Gish-gallopig from one problem to another doesnt solve any of them. I’m focusing strongly on that aspect (among other things) because I’ve helped players directly more times than I can count, and just like everyone who actually does that instead of just telling others to do it, I’ve experienced again and again that certain tools are needed to make helping new players more effective.

The most important of those tools is a help system that explains the most important things directly ingame, as an alternative towards typing the same things out over and over again, and towards sending people to a forum where they’re likely to not find what they’re looking for unless they search for half an hour, assuming it's there at all. That help system includes rules that aren’t presented in an amateurish, uselessly long-to-read, and inconvenient-to-access way.

Next in line are a rethink of PvP balance, “unwritten PvP rules”, and mining that doesn’t require multiple anonymous “FastestMiner“ characters. I’ve undertaken extensive efforts to help solve all of these things. Unfortunately, not only are many of the “leaders types” here too out of touch with newbies to understand their needs, but they’re also actively working against them because of petty motives like pride or personal grudges.

Do I really need to remind you all what happened last time a ''enthusiastic player'' rewrote the server rules by themselves? We had to re-roll the rules and it took two years to do so, because they were being patched as new and new idioticy began cropping up.

You may remind me of everything you want, but even if what you say was true, it remains something that the admins of the time have failed to do properly, not something that I’ve failed to do properly. So maybe you should direct your comment at them and not me.

Rules cannot be generalized. They cannot be simplified, because their only reason for existing is to establish what a player can and cannot do in order to make our server habitable. I think this is the biggest issue people are failing to grasp. The point of the server rules is to keep players in check in a way game mechanics cannot. We simplify the rules to the point where we end up needing to put in specifications and asterisks for every single one. How many times do we need to go through this to understand that rules cannot by their definition be vague.

Another strawman. I didn’t make rules vague or generalized. I made them shorter to read (by reformulating, not removing) and easier to understand, and they’ll also be easier to access when the already finished help system is implemented. I’ve even added additional explanations in the form of clickable spoilers on the forum, to replace the presently existing poorly maintained and outdated “rule explanation thread”.

Discovery Freelancer is like Dwarf Fortress. Once you figure it out, you will have a grand time. But in the case where DF has game mechanics, we have the Server Rules. The best we can have is a comprehensive guide around them ala DF Wiki for players who are interested in putting at least SOME effort into figuring out the game to do so on their own. Or to have players willing to help them do so. Discovery is Complex. That is just how it is and it is not going to be for everybody.

A false equivalence and more strawmen. I’m making things easier to figure out. I’m not trying to make figuring things out unnecessary.

Right now I am the most worried that this whole situation is going to turn into the following:

A player has spent his time and effort, without knowing that the admin section has half a dozen threads regarding rule changes and tweaks, to rewrite the server rules. A player who seems to exhibit an attitude of ''Fine, if they cannot be bothered, I will do it all myself and if they (staff) cannot implement these changes even when they are presented to them on a silver plate, it means they are inept/lazy/don't care.'' And no amount of explanation will be able to change their mind. And everyone who has benefit from agreeing with them, regardless of their thoughts on the rewrite, will hoist up their banners and split the community apart just for the fun of it. Again.

The staff had and still has every occasion to explain everything they want, to make the threads you mention visible, and to help with this in any constructive manner they want.

After your misrepresentations and strawmen, you end by evoking an imaginary army of strawmen hoisting banners spitting the community “for the fun of it”. So allow me to respond to the overall sentiment.

Just because someone was either unable or unwilling to do something, it doesn’t mean the thing is impossible for other people to do. Or at least it doesn’t have to, if those who failed before refrain from making it impossible for someone else out of spite, pride, or jealousy. The later is what’s really splitting the community.

People here are diverse, and I like that. Some make a living as truck drivers, or by selling scrap metal, or as soldiers, and some didn’t finish school. Some of them make this game an important part of their lives, some a too important part imho. I may not always take this game (or myself while playing it) as seriously as some do, but I’ve played it just as long or longer. I also make a living doing things no one else was able to do before me (a.k.a “doing science”), writing and publishing it in peer reviewed journals and books, peer-reviewing other people’s stuff myself (thereby becoming a pretty good editor over the years), teaching in university, and writing physical models/retrievals more complex than Freelancer.

Some people may not be able to do or understand some of the things you and others can, especially if they’re hidden in invisible forum threads. But you should maybe also consider the possibility that there are things that others can do even if you couldn’t do it. We could try to complement each other’s abilities, instead of fighting progress because "we" don’t want others to succeed where "we” failed. The later is more than just being inept or ill-coordinated. It’s petty and butt-hurt, and makes the community and game much worse than they need to be.

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