(06-12-2019, 05:58 PM)Rantari Wrote: is because without using broken mechanics there is no point even trying.
If the only way you hope to stand a chance is an admittedly broken mechanic then just stop playing to win. I've seen this allegation for years now and I can understand where it comes from, but the logic is always faulty. The point of a learning curve is to work through it and games usually provide multiple avenues to do so. SHFs can counter VHFs without the dumb dual MR meta, this is coming from a guy who mounted two chain guns just for laughs.
I'm curious where you're getting this VHF justification from, please don't cite hearsay because that'll automatically invalidate your point. Dealing more with the facts of these changes and less with the assumptions will give you a better insight on just how this shakes things up.
"I'm bad at X, make it so that I can kill someone with years of experience and more technique than me." - If this were any other community there'd be an angry mob coming for you with pitchforks. You aren't forced to play VHFs or learn them, but neither are you entitled to have broken gimmicks purely because you're getting killed by someone better than you. There have been people older than you on the server that would likely have better reflexes than me, a young man, so let's leave stuff like that aside.
Tldr: Don't be silly and try to find a scape-goat in the form of fighters. At least not when silencer missiles outnumber CM amounts.
To be fair though VHF combat - whilst I think it's more fun than other forms of PvP these days - is still plagued by its lack of accessibility for players and I'm still amazed that several years later little to no consistent effort has been made to make the class more friendly.
(06-12-2019, 05:58 PM)Rantari Wrote: is because without using broken mechanics there is no point even trying.
If the only way you hope to stand a chance is an admittedly broken mechanic then just stop playing to win. I've seen this allegation for years now and I can understand where it comes from, but the logic is always faulty. The point of a learning curve is to work through it and games usually provide multiple avenues to do so. SHFs can counter VHFs without the dumb dual MR meta, this is coming from a guy who mounted two chain guns just for laughs.
I'm curious where you're getting this VHF justification from, please don't cite hearsay because that'll automatically invalidate your point. Dealing more with the facts of these changes and less with the assumptions will give you a better insight on just how this shakes things up.
"I'm bad at X, make it so that I can kill someone with years of experience and more technique than me." - If this were any other community there'd be an angry mob coming for you with pitchforks. You aren't forced to play VHFs or learn them, but neither are you entitled to have broken gimmicks purely because you're getting killed by someone better than you. There have been people older than you on the server that would likely have better reflexes than me, a young man, so let's leave stuff like that aside.
Tldr: Don't be silly and try to find a scape-goat in the form of fighters. At least not when silencer missiles outnumber CM amounts.
To be fair though VHF combat - whilst I think it's more fun than other forms of PvP these days - is still plagued by its lack of accessibility for players and I'm still amazed that several years later little to no consistent effort has been made to make the class more friendly.
I agree, but I don't think that's the case anymore. SHFs counter fighters, they in return counter bombers and then of course bombers counter SHFs. The balance of power finally runs in a circle, it might not be a perfect circle (great band btw check them out) but it's something. You can't make a class friendlier without dumbing it down given the limited mechanics we have and the style of the game to begin with. People really ought to experiment more and focus more on progress and less on victory. The latter can lead to some pretty dodgy behaviour in the long-run.
(06-12-2019, 05:58 PM)Rantari Wrote: is because without using broken mechanics there is no point even trying.
If the only way you hope to stand a chance is an admittedly broken mechanic then just stop playing to win. I've seen this allegation for years now and I can understand where it comes from, but the logic is always faulty. The point of a learning curve is to work through it and games usually provide multiple avenues to do so. SHFs can counter VHFs without the dumb dual MR meta, this is coming from a guy who mounted two chain guns just for laughs.
I'm curious where you're getting this VHF justification from, please don't cite hearsay because that'll automatically invalidate your point. Dealing more with the facts of these changes and less with the assumptions will give you a better insight on just how this shakes things up.
"I'm bad at X, make it so that I can kill someone with years of experience and more technique than me." - If this were any other community there'd be an angry mob coming for you with pitchforks. You aren't forced to play VHFs or learn them, but neither are you entitled to have broken gimmicks purely because you're getting killed by someone better than you. There have been people older than you on the server that would likely have better reflexes than me, a young man, so let's leave stuff like that aside.
Tldr: Don't be silly and try to find a scape-goat in the form of fighters. At least not when silencer missiles outnumber CM amounts.
To be fair though VHF combat - whilst I think it's more fun than other forms of PvP these days - is still plagued by its lack of accessibility for players and I'm still amazed that several years later little to no consistent effort has been made to make the class more friendly.
reeves is smart and says good things listen to him
lyth,
i doubt that you could make snub pvp in this game "more accessible" without gutting it entirely and making the game a "whoever press q fast win game" like crossfire is
i would very much like to hear ideas tho because if theyre good ideas it will make people log snubs so i can shoot them and i like shooting snubs : )
(06-12-2019, 06:19 PM)Reeves Wrote: "I'm bad at X, make it so that I can kill someone with years of experience and more technique than me."
I really like this segment because it truly emphasizes that "playing for fun" isn't a thing anymore in discovery. It's just play to win. Doesn't matter how little fun you're having as long as you decimate the opposing side and make sure they have as little fun as the game allows.
That one time in Cortez (I think a day before the last day of the event?) was truly miraculous. Imagine people, on both sides, being good sports and just playing the videogame with empathy for the enemy team in mind. Woah.
Yeah I feel like we literally have so much variety in ships and weapons and combinations thereof that a complete rebalance is basically impossible at this point without designing an entirely new game.
(06-12-2019, 06:54 PM)Pillow Wrote: I really like this segment because it truly emphasizes that "playing for fun" isn't a thing anymore in discovery. It's just play to win. Doesn't matter how little fun you're having as long as you decimate the opposing side and make sure they have as little fun as the game allows.
That one time in Cortez (I think a day before the last day of the event?) was truly miraculous. Imagine people, on both sides, being good sports and just playing the videogame with empathy for the enemy team in mind. Woah.
I'm not going to lie, I started getting really concerned for the game's future when I realized that opposing sides are worse at being decent to each other than EVE players. Even Goons and TEST, two alliances that have been at war with each other more times than England and France, can manage to spend the 5 minutes required to go "hey we're bored and looking for a fight" "yeah so are we" "cool we'll be there in some cruisers and stuff in a bit, maybe 30-40 guys" "alright we'll bring something similar".
For a community of a game where long term goals beyond "shoot the mans good" are built around diplomacy, cooperation and friendly competition, we seem to on the whole be terrible at actually communicating with one another.
The price of the scorchers and the neutralizers is too much for what they're now (primary bomber/super heavy fighter guns). I'd like to see the price cut down to let's say, 300000 credits.
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(06-12-2019, 07:17 PM)GAIVS TROLLIVS Wrote: The price of the scorchers and the neutralizers is too much for what they're now (primary bomber/super heavy fighter guns).
Scatterguns were too powerful and needed to be nerfed. I agree with them having their effectiveness reduced. However they now have no use as they are completed neutered.
There needs to be a middle ground somewhere along the lines of perhaps 400-500m range and reduced damage output. This current change simply swaps one problem for another problem in that a gun that was too strong is now entirely useless and this is not an appropriate solution.
(06-12-2019, 07:07 PM)Kazinsal Wrote: Yeah I feel like we literally have so much variety in ships and weapons and combinations thereof that a complete rebalance is basically impossible at this point without designing an entirely new game.
(06-12-2019, 06:54 PM)Pillow Wrote: I really like this segment because it truly emphasizes that "playing for fun" isn't a thing anymore in discovery. It's just play to win. Doesn't matter how little fun you're having as long as you decimate the opposing side and make sure they have as little fun as the game allows.
That one time in Cortez (I think a day before the last day of the event?) was truly miraculous. Imagine people, on both sides, being good sports and just playing the videogame with empathy for the enemy team in mind. Woah.
I'm not going to lie, I started getting really concerned for the game's future when I realized that opposing sides are worse at being decent to each other than EVE players. Even Goons and TEST, two alliances that have been at war with each other more times than England and France, can manage to spend the 5 minutes required to go "hey we're bored and looking for a fight" "yeah so are we" "cool we'll be there in some cruisers and stuff in a bit, maybe 30-40 guys" "alright we'll bring something similar".
For a community of a game where long term goals beyond "shoot the mans good" are built around diplomacy, cooperation and friendly competition, we seem to on the whole be terrible at actually communicating with one another.
You sir, could not have said it better.
No matter what the Game Masters try, never will everyone be happy.
I appreciate the effort the team does, it's still a thankless job done for the ungrateful.
i doubt that you could make snub pvp in this game "more accessible" without gutting it entirely and making the game a "whoever press q fast win game" like crossfire is
i would very much like to hear ideas tho because if theyre good ideas it will make people log snubs so i can shoot them and i like shooting snubs : )
Something cap combat gets right is its accessibility, which it achieves through having a greater emphasis on movement rather than aim. Movement, spatial awareness, and understanding your ship are the attributes to winning cap pvp - aim is pretty much handled by TS, although vs more skilled players blindfiring can come into play.
I feel like the problem with Snub pvp is, comparatively at least, it places too much emphasis on aim over other pvp characteristics. People will say that movement is also an important part of Snub pvp - and that's not entirely wrong - but if you want to make any headway in a pvp encounter you've got to turn and shoot, and a lot of people find FL's aim mechanics in fighters infuriating (for a good couple years I did).
I think the answer to making fighter pvp more fun and accessible isn't torps and missiles (although, bringing back aux slots and having different variations of MR, Escopeta, Tartarus etc would be cool), but instead making it easier to aim fighter guns. I would propose adding +200m/s to all fighter guns. That is the first step.
Otherwise, like I said largely fighter pvp hasn't changed at all except for the minority of players who study the mechanics and conn all day, rather than players who haven't managed to get over that hurdle yet.
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