It hasn't even been a day since this thread was posted, give the poor lads a chance to assess the situation. We all make mistakes, after all. I'm sure that current story can fix this issue easily.
(02-08-2022, 12:18 AM)DariusCiprian Wrote: It hasn't even been a day since this thread was posted, give the poor lads a chance to assess the situation. We all make mistakes, after all. I'm sure that current story can fix this issue easily.
Except that disco staff have coincidentally been making the exact same mistake again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.
"Lets not talk about how we do things. Lets all welcome the current guys in power as heroes and trust they'll do things better while doing everything the same way as has been done since 2008."
I wonder what qualification process Story Developers have to go through to earn their title. I know for 1ICs it's "being there when the former 1IC is leaving".
I sometimes remember the days of Faction Status Reports. While some were bragging about how much RP their powergamed NPC station sieges generated, others actually added a few hints about where they are planning to take their faction within the limits of what is possible as player faction, and everyone else could read it and reach out to them or leave it be. I always found that nice, because back then people tried to give instead of just demanding and taking.
Communication is key, and something horribly lacking here on Disco. Top to bottom, there is no sense of flow and communication in matters of development.
There's absolutely no reason why the larger Story cannot be driven by, or at least skipped upon as a stone skips on a lake, the player made RP, touching down here and there. Yes, at times there is cringe, lack of effort, or selfish bits, but doesn't mean the entirety of the story arc should be written behind closed doors in the hands of 2 or 3 very human people. One of the very appealing things about playing in a small niche game envrionment such as Discovery Freelancer (at least to me) is that it is developed by actual participating players is the hope and potential that your little world comes to life and evolves around you rather then just waiting for the next mage patch the game corporation will drop next.
I hope the system Markam wishes to implement can bring a sense of community involvement and not community ignoring, but it remains a hope, and just that.
#JusticeForBurgundy
"Music gives Wings to the Mind, Soul to the Universe, and Life to Everything"
I've lost count of how many times I've seen threads like this pop up, and I've lost count of how many times devs promised the same "improvements" to take place. And I've seen people arguing over official factions taking part in disco's story development way too many times to count.
It never worked. For all my time here, Disco's story was always like this.
It's a shame, really. Every other department is doing an amazing job at making the game look cool and play cool, yet the story was always "obeying the vision of one person without taking others into account".
(10-13-2023, 12:51 AM)Haste Wrote: This is a feature as most Discovery players would not receive a response from women.
(02-07-2022, 11:39 AM)Markam Wrote: I am sure however the main gripe is not being able to direct story as players. Unfortunately, this cannot happen in the way perhaps Saronsen desires. The story department must absolutely dictate where story is heading, that is their job. We have attempted in the past to do player written story through a discord group, and the results were frankly appalling. It was nothing but a mess of arguing, lobbying purely for ones own faction, and Story "developments" which were nothing more than singular changes that did not fit into any proper narrative and were very short sighted.
Yeah no you are wrong there - Gallia worked when it did, current system is a buddy system with people knowing devs and being friends getting things pushed and receiving feedback, everyone else is in the dark with no impact. Dev plans go ignored for months, there's no feedback at all provided - story feels extremely detached and like you don't even care about what people suggest, unless they are your friends.
I have given up on the story department long ago and powergame player driven stories instead. Many others have done the same as well, and I honestly don't think you guys care - it seems like you prefer to calmly work on your Zootycoon without getting that pesky annoying community involved.
If you at least, you know...gave a fuck and replied to dev plans submitted with some sort of feedback in fast manner, not ignore them either completely or many months later without a single sentense just said "didn't fit with story"
(02-08-2022, 12:16 AM)Spectre Wrote: What I find most tragic here is that, despite all the discussion in this thread, and despite all the outcry and concern, this changes absolutely nothing.
Story will continue as it sees fit because they've been handed all the cards. The roleplay environment is dictated by the people with all the power, and all that power is in the hands of people who don't care what others think.
Unless the team actually starts talking with people before things are set in stone about what could be done to make things better, this will eventually end up becoming a wasteland of mundane thoughts and ideas with zombies roaming around shooting each other with fancy engine effects.
Preventing situations like this was the whole reason the DWG existed.
Yeah lol, I'm not even sure why I bothered replying - I am just very tired IRL. We are just wasting our breath here plain and simple, this has come up many times before, nothing will change, it's just calmer and easier to ignore the community and do your own thing as a Story Dev. Admins and Balance work very well I feel with working with community, Alex is too to some extent, Systems are on and off but mostly major concerns are discussed etc. Story never has cared and won't care becuse it would make their life more difficult. I can't blame them a it's their hobby at the end of the day - but doesn't mean we won't complain about it and wish they weren't just ignoring people like they are
ALSO: TL;DR: I have learned to live without story, expect absolutely nothing from them, and just try to cross fingers and hope they don't fuck up too hard as we work with actual community on player driven story arcs that don't get any pixels. Because at the end of the day it's a game, and as leaders we can take a responsibility to drive our little stories - so what we don't get solars afterwards.
(02-08-2022, 06:50 AM)Zentor Wrote: Communication is key, and something horribly lacking here on Disco. Top to bottom, there is no sense of flow and communication in matters of development.
There's absolutely no reason why the larger Story cannot be driven by, or at least skipped upon as a stone skips on a lake, the player made RP, touching down here and there. Yes, at times there is cringe, lack of effort, or selfish bits, but doesn't mean the entirety of the story arc should be written behind closed doors in the hands of 2 or 3 very human people. One of the very appealing things about playing in a small niche game envrionment such as Discovery Freelancer (at least to me) is that it is developed by actual participating players is the hope and potential that your little world comes to life and evolves around you rather then just waiting for the next mage patch the game corporation will drop next.
I hope the system Markam wishes to implement can bring a sense of community involvement and not community ignoring, but it remains a hope, and just that.
The fact that the "new system of communication" is devised again behind closed doors, to be revealed when finished, is telling in itself.
If the dev-team knows that there need to be changes towards more player participation - why again do something without player participation...?
That is an organisational problem as much as it is a ..."problem"... of mindset.
Another problem is the quality of non-participation-"story"-development. Openly lauding people for ignoring the input and RP of players involved in a "story"-line is ... not good.
Sends the totally wrong message.
The whole concept of RP on this server needs to be reconstructed and streamlined. I understand that there is a core of players who revel in the forum-RP, keep it.
But also make a different style of RP possible - like for example voice chat RP over the Discord. This would make people more invested in their characters and encourage participation.
I could (and will on request) name how I deem this implementable.
Regarding the general structure of RP there are also other oprions and I will try to write down the TED talk I had with two friends yesterday:
Take the nonsensical "story" beat about the looming extinction of the INS presented in the latest patch and obviously never do such a thing again without player participation, that's a given.
Also make people participate in this "story" by giving them the opportunity to actively shape it without setting the result in stone beforehand. How to do it?
I could hardly be be bothered to only skim the text about this "story", which is ironically benefical for my viewpoint.
So you have the Liblawfuls make a move on the INS, the BAF-NPC's suffering a defeat while helping. Bretonian government is unsure about further involvement,
that's the gist of hours of hours of "story"-work (you got to be kidding me?!).
You can salvage this on many levels and I will concentrate on the Bretonian side of it, as it offers a good example.
There is the story-input about internal discussion about how to proceed further.
If so, then I tell to the dev-team the same I tell my players in Pen & Paper: Act. It. Out.
Design a similar event as the "Operation Condo...r" in O-48. Make a schedule in advance, drop a forum post, have people enlist their factions to it.
Event creation is simple from an organisational and RP point of view.
Story beat goes like this: There are two high ranking individuals in the Bretonian government said to have tremendous influence (at least one has or will have)
on the upcoming decision-making how the NPC-faction will act. Those two characters you sit in a Yacht and have them travel slowly from an observation of the
military desaster back to planet New London. The characters are embodied by either dev's or trusted acquaintances. They are present in Bretonian space
and can be interacted with. Setup finished.
For the sake of argument (and I apologize in advance for any shortcuts I take or factions I might "misrepresent" - it's an example) say there are four player-factions active and present
to interact with the situation: BAF, BMM, Gaians, Mollys.
They have their own agenda reached by internal player interaction or definitive decision of the respective command staff:
BAF wants to continue the military engagement.
BMM wants withdrawal for obvious economic reasons
Mollys want a continuation as it binds ressources of lawfuls outside of Bretonian space.
Gaians are not that interested, want to "just" cause a bit of commotion.
[Note: None of my depictions represent the reality of faction decisions made.]
Also Mollys might have gotten some intel on who the more important government individual is regarding the NPC-government-decision-making.
This opens so many pathways of how RP could organically evolve:
Mollys could try to sell a wrong information to the BMM, could then try to assassinate the government official during the event.
BAF wants to convince the officials to continue the engagement, so you have the 1iC and 2iC hounding them with arguments and trying
to bring forward as much conviction as they are able to, show of arms, reworked battle-strategy, you name it.
BMM also present and presenting counter-arguments to end the engagement.
Molly attack might fail while the transit goes on (or not). Or the Gaians might anticipate the stance of the BMM in advance and extort them for
a shaky agreement of non-interference int he situation.
As the event concludes, there might be a definitive situation reached (a dead official for example) and this shapes the upcoming decision of
the Bretonia NPC-government in a significant way.
Anyone who has a basic understanding of how RP works can see the multitude of possible story developments here.
Also it is a comparatively easy way of encouraging player participation and by just doing so strenghten player involvement in the
fate of the respective NPC-faction. Makes people more emotionally involved. And (rightly so) gives players participating in the event and surrounding pre- or after-events
the sense of "making a difference" in Sirius.
Yes this means the story-dev-team is presented with a new situation: the outcome is not set in stone. The story shifts organically, you have to think of contingencies for different outcomes,
you have to COPE - sounds familiar? I am a Pen & Paper GM for 10 years now and I don't railroad people, don't even prepare myself in advance of a game night, just go with what the players
present me and where they are headed. A GM is there to provide structure and helpful advice. Being a story-dev is not the same as being a GM. A GM is a story-applicator not a story-instructor and this server needs
more GMs who are like this. Everybody who just instantly recognized what I wrote, you are the right person for such a thing. Step right up, please.
All of my depiction has one underlying notion about player factions though, I want to delve into this topic quickly as it is tightly connected to what I said about organically developing RP.
I agree to the assessment that the role of official and unofficial factions need to change to accomodate a urgently necessary change of RP-paradigm.
Players want more influence in the story and the decisions regarding NPC factions (I totally get why Saronsen is ...agitated... about what went on without him even knowing).
That means that the concept of player factions needs to be thought differently.
Factions should be part of the "political" decision making, more like lobbies or political parties in their own self-image, if they wish to.
By going a route of story development as pictured regarding Bretonia you could make such a development process a steady and recurring thing.
Have people be involved in it with their faction.
And I can easily provide any example for this - take the Corsairs. There is a Council of Elders that makes decisions, NPC driven and therefore driven by the "story"-dev-team.
Why not get the head honchos of the existing and active Corsair factions together once a month and have them REALLY TALK about what should be the way to go or the
goals to aim for. Have a story-applicator be present to take note and then create a story-line out of it.
Check back with the factions involved and provide structure. This could lessen workload on developers and encourage people to participate.
This community is slowly dying of inactivity. We cannot advertise in a traditional way to gather new players or rope back older vets.
We need to rely on mouth-to-mouth advertising and therefore the players need to be intrinsically motivated to tell their friends and acquaintances of Discovery.
I have a bunch of friends who would be much more eager to lend me their ear, if I could whole-heartedly tell them "This is a REAL RP-server!"
And I'm willing to bet money on it that some people reading this are nodding right now.
I will gladly sit down and talk in voice chat with anyone from the higher-ups about all of this, if the walls of the ivory tower have a door built-in that is...
You can find me on Discord under the same username.
____
"But what if one person is the 1iC of two interacting factions?" - Well, get a stand-in and have a story dev supervise the whole thing, if it is important for the canon.
Also kinda "forces" a decision of such an individual which faction is more important to them, not necessarily a bad thing. An interesting problem, less so for
a person with integrity and a sense of fair RP.
This is a complicated topic but I am happy that Saronsen has raised it because it's something that I've thought about for some time and it's on my list to look into.
I am going to share my preliminary thoughts and mind you, they are surface level without any in-depth review. Generally, this topic can be split up into two main arguments.
Give players and official groups the ability to influence the story.
Have the story developers move the story along.
As with most things in life, moderation is the key and truth is found somewhere in the middle. If you only had OF moving the stories along, you would have chaos and people never agreeing to anything, everyone pushing the pie in their favor or trying to eat as much slices as possible, pardon the simple analogy. I understand that previously this was tried but failed because it was a shouting match. I think that some guidelines and proper implementation is key here.
The other possibility will provide stability and will be easier to implement. However, it definitely has much more negatives than the above and will ultimately bring down the community.
We are playing on a role-play server. It's not a PvP arena. People are invested in their factions and in their characters. It's more than just a shooter. The goal of this server is to promote RP.
If you remove the ability for players and factions to influence the story, you essentially omit any long-term player investment in this server. There's no point in playing in an RP server if the RP doesn't contribute to anything and the story is on rails or the same for 15 years. People might as well just play PvP. And, if people wanted pure PvP, they would not be playing Freelancer Discovery.
If you remove the ability for players and factions to influence the story, you can potentially invalidate all the time and resources they spent in this game by making arbitrary decisions. You can alienate a big fraction of the player base in the process.
If you rely on story developers for solely pushing the story, there's a number of issues. First of all, you are roadblocked on a limited amount of people. The same people with no oversight are vulnerable in number of ways - from working on what they like first (we are human after all), to pushing the story along in a way that they want without accountability and oversight. This also puts huge amount of pressure on said people to provide stories with limited time and resources.
Simply put, it's not cost-effective, it's liable to abuse. And even if the people are absolutely objective, they have a limited resource and they themselves have limited scope.
I am still working my way around everything in discovery but I think the function of the administration, particularly in terms of story should be that of a benevolent guardian or a dungeon master.
And the goal of the dungeon master is for people to ultimately play by the rules, not to go completely outside of the constraints of the fiction they are in, and lastly to make sure they have fun.
I think for the most part, some of the old players have forgotten that this is what we are here to essentially do. If the game is not fun for the most part, people leave, communities die. And this community is not in a great shape.
Heavy disclaimer again, that this a surface level thought process and analysis.
To me, the solution is the following:
Story devs should serve as mediator, guide, or essentially a Dungeon Master. They should not be the ones actually driving the story. The players should.
The 1st / 2nd in commands of respective OFs should be able to create drafts, plans, stories, and move the plot along.
If the plan involves their enemies, the respective OFs Leaders should come to a conclusion together and work it out. Be prepared to lose territory or to make concessions - have it go back and forth. Once the plan is aligned, the Dev signs it off if they thinks it's fair for both parties.
If the OF leads are unable to come up with a solution themselves due to disagreements, greed, stubbornness or whatever other factor - the Dev intervenes in the most fair possible way. If the two leaders are not happy with that, this will incentivize them to find a common ground next time.
The rules are kept and guidelines are provided. You prevent chaos and you ensure players and faction agency in the process. This results in people actually having something to look forward to.
Devs are no longer a roadblock (they need to sign off something brought to them) , and at the same time they guide the process from being broken, out of the rails, or being unfair.
You don't have 1 or 2 people deciding the fate of the entire mod's story, which is bad for numerous reasons. The process is more transparent.
Decisions need to be logical but most importantly made for the health and the good of the overall community. In the end, if no one plays, there's no point to it all. That's my surface level thought process. This topic is overall, a part of my agenda and I'm going to put thoughts into how the current system can be improved. Evidently, by the player sentiment here and based on what I've observed, there's a need for improvement.
Generally, I think we can all agree on that. It's the implementation that counts and having more transparency.
Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.
@Ravenna Nagash now that's the good approach.
Thanks for putting it into words better than I could have. I expected to see Discovery use this model by the time of my return. I was disappointed to see that the story was being turned into mere background.