moved the BHG stuff into a new thread

[Jinx]

well - one thing is clear. if BHG members cannot use gunboats - any merc that was using a BHG gunboat would be sanctioned. - cause there d not be a logic behind it. ( BHG getting sanctioned for using their own gunboats, but a petty merc without bonds to any faction flying the gunboats? - hell no and never )

so that should be cleared up. ( personally, i don t like mercs using BHG gear anyway, no matter if its a fighter, bomber or capship - the BHG is a faction - if you want to use their gear... be BHG. if you don t want to be BHG, don t use their gear, - clear as it can be...and mercs are not listed as allies in the BHG ID ( mind, no specific ally is listed at all - so no one but BHG should use BHG gear ) [ includes weapons, too - btw ] )

about the roleplay....

since that was asked for. - the BHG has formed as a substitute police force ( like it or not ) - cause the police couldn t keep up with the crime. - that is FL lore. - the BHG takes up patrol pathes that are not available to the police ( jumpholes, jumpgates or places where no patrol station is near ) - that is also official FL lore.

the BHG pulls strength from the fact that some ( no - even if ppl like to express it ... only some ... not ALL ) BHGs are turncoats and add their valuable knowledge to the BHG - that is why the BHG is feared MUCH more by pirates than the police... cause the BHG knows their secrets.

now - the BHG was formed as a "response force" to counter the crime. - in the time it existed it evolved. - the police has not reformed much - but relied on the BHG ( thats lore - not reality on the server ) - so the BHG uses whats possible and available to counter pirates. - henceforth they build up a power than can overwhelm whatever they meet.

now - the BHG is not a truely centralized hierachy. - the BHG itself is something like a "merc-net" - it gives the members informations that normal "mercs" don t have. - however - the normal thug ( which can be a single person or a little group ) pays their fee and gets information from the BHG. - the BHG as a faction is the core. - they "live" on the members fees

now - whatever power is needed to kill a pirate is up to the members and what they can muster. - so... it is of course possible for a BHG group to operate a gunboat - as it is for a zoner to fly a battleship or a corsair to recruit some mates to fly a cruiser.
the BHG would hardly deploy a cruiser to hunt the "normal" pirate. - but if pirates appeared unusually often in cruisers or battleships... the BHG would CERTAINLY answer with capital ships, too. ( and thats the BHG, not the core )

to support that. - in RP, in the lore, the BHG takes up a major part in sirius crime fightings. - they gain a lot of money from it. - the NPC faction is basicly employed as a special forces unit to assist the local police. - more expendable and they are more willing to take up risks. - however in contrast to the normal "merc" they are also much more reliable... cause ( as i wrote a longer time ago ) - they have a reputation. - if they rretreat from a fight, it falls back to the BHGs general reputation. - if a merc retreats.... its only his own reputation ( at least as important - but its up to himself ) - if a BHG pilot retreats from battle too often... he might face to be expelled from the BHG... and indeed end up a normal merc.

the only RP part that supports all that though is that:
- the BHG is the largest anti crime organization in sirius
- the BHG is wealthy and consists of professionals that not only know how to fight crime, but sometimes even know the crime itself
- the BHG is selfish, they don t want to die nor do they want to appear weak - and history is made by winners... so the BHG would try to overpower and they are not likely to underestimate the pirates.
- the BHG puts almost ALL their cash into their fleet. - they have few bases for such a large organization, but instead hire bases. - other organizations like the zoners put more cash into stationbuilding and exploration and colonization - hence they have less money for their fleet.

thats all i can think of when it comes down to roleplay. - however.... fairplay is more important. anyway - i do expect the official factions to strictly make sure NO other faction but BHG tagged and IDed players to use the BHG ships in the future. - it would be disgusting to see a merc flying a BHG cap.... .

edit:

however - i m not entirely against disallowing gunboats for normal IDs ( i am just against disallowing it for selected few while others are allowed, especially others that are in direct hostile touch with those not allowed )

if all capital ships were banned from the core systems ( only allowed in the guard systems at all ) - the lawful navy would gain power, cause they d be THE prime power being allowed capships in their home systems. - an aspect that is quite a good one, imo. - it would put things right... giving the military real power while keeping the pirates down low. - mercs and BHG would only fly fighters and sometimes bombers - so would pirates... a perfect setup.

if that was the plan, everything would be fair. - but even if the ID will remain unchanged...it ll cause some gleeful gloating over the screwed up players - and those that have no RP will move on to another faction anyway ( and i m happy that it won t be zoners, cause zoners cannot shoot others on sight )

the state we ll get is what we had in 4.83 - a ratio of 90 : 10 ( mercs : BHG ) ..... and that means a lot of uncertainty cause you never know what a merc is about. - he might as well shoot you on sight or leave you be - or leave you and shoot you randomly. - it ll get to a general merc ban in house systems and merc bashing on the forum ( seen in 4.83 ) - the problem remains the same - only the tag is different.

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Eternal]

The problem with the Bounty Hunters as a whole wont change , just with the things that are being instrodused in the next mod.

The real problem with the faction is that BHG can appear almost everywhere in Siruis and engage every pirate/unlawfull and so on and so on. That is their RP that is what they do , pure and simple a matter of PvP supiriority. And the fact that they have one of the most succesfull shiplines doesn't help at all. Dividing the BHG from the BHGC wont help either , because both have very little diffrence in between them in the PvP aspect.

Hunters are also priviliged with yet another thing , exept all this , they can engage , mostly at will , any unlawfull faction , yet they themselves are not always engaged at will from those same faction members. For instance , as a member of the Volksfront , I don't directly assault BHG players when they are in S-13 for instance.Since they have not directly endangered the people of Rheinland in any way, they are not trying to stop the revolution we fight for and don't carry any of our pilots , I can't simply atack them. I try to RP with them , with little to no luck what so ever , most of them don't say a word , yet when the odds are in there favour they simply deside to change the "good" side and atack. Dispite that , Hunters have a WIDE range of ships at there disposal , it is not something new to me seeing BH ID'ed and Tag'ed LABC in Delta. Or the other day a BH Liberty Cruiser in Alpha. There equipment is also very spread. I'm sure they can easily use almost all lawfull faction weapons.

My suggestion towards the BHG ID is this.

Cannot do

- Engage unlawfull who do not have a Bounty on there heads.Exept Order ID'ed and Tag'ed vessles and exept in self defence.

This is something wich is even in the name of the faction - BOUNTY hunters.

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[Jinx]

often BHGs are attacked - but subjected to the chances the other one has. - i have been flying a manta for quite some time now ( a hammerhead before ) - and i experience a lot of pirates attack on sight.

the problem there is that - if a BHG experiences 3 - 4 pirates attack on sight - he himself will do it, too - so it goes round and round - and incidently - it will catch those that do not wish to attack on sight, too.

if there was a clause that every pirate needed an iron clad reason to attack a BHG, as a BHG needs as much reason to attack a pirate - it would work.

but my experience is ( when you re the weaker ship ) that you are attacked... but if i was to attack first ... i was blamed for "not having a bounty" ... so i have to endure the first broadside to be considered "self defense".

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Shipdesigns made for DiscoveryGC

[Zero755]

I guess it can be seen both ways. The pirates attack the BHG because at some point they have probably lost a buddy to the BHG, that or the typical hatred for anything lawful. And for the Hunters, no hunter in their right mind would just go gallivanting off on a personal criminal killing crusade without some motive. Usually financial. So in reality, a BH attacking a pirate with no established motive (Bounty or otherwise) is essentially OoRP. Regardless of what the pilots think they aren't an additional police unless the house militaries/police are paying them for each criminal head. It is a lopsided deal, because it is in the criminal's RP to kill BH on sight, but not necessarily for the BHG to kill a criminal on sight. It is a price that is paid for having infinite ZOI and a good ship line to compliment it. No other faction, except the Zoners has infinite ZOI. The Junkers come close, but they have issues in Kusari.

My 0.02USD

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[Eternal]

/ Added something in my previos post /

I've personaly observed that the "how I feel about something threat" is not a matter of discussion here. The most common advice in this kinds of situations is that you ( the person who has suffered in some unfair way ) keep cool and forget what happend. I have done this ALOT.

Bounty Hunters should actually be engaged by most pirate / unlawfull groups on sight , since these groups would thing that the Hunter might couse them trouble in the futur. Yet , the hunters themselves should not atack FIRST. When they are atacked , they can simply return fire , due to self defence. But that gives the pirates something important. If they do not wish to engage the Hunter at this point , they will not. Thus the hunter wont engage them aswell.

Other then that , players who have chosen the BHG as a faction should generaly avoid coming directly at an unfriendly to them faction , because they can usualy expect being blown up on sight.


EDIT - Zero , I don't fully agree. Most unlawfull faction should engage the BHG on sight , because that is a part of their role play. The pirates may choose not to engage , however , they have no way of knowing that the said hunter wont go for a friend of there's or sabotage some facility they are trying to maintain or an operassion they are / or are about to run. That is why they would atack them mostly on sight. But the Bounty Hunters should not atack , even said faction on sight. Exept if they have a bounty.

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[Raekur]

Attacking without reason is one of the operational guidelines that i proposed to the leaders of DW.
Basically it states that we will only initiate combat against a pirate that has either a bounty or is on our KOS listing. The KOS listing will be a precise list of those pirates that attack BH without cause or notification (i.e. the pvpwhores). Reasoning for this is simple, you attack a BH, expect them to return the favor in spades.
You dont want to be attacked, dont give us a reason.
There are also 4 other guidelines that are up for a vote that will change quite a bit of how we operate and here is the kicker, every one is well within the stated RP of the bounty hunters guild.


EDIT -
as far as a ship line, BH and civilian just as everyone else. Usually flying anything else will get you shot by that faction. Which btw, I will also agree that any merc flying a BH vessel be either sanctioned or blasted out of the sky for theft. Same as any other faction would do and does.

[Eternal]

Yes ... strange as it may seem. The DW actually folow that code of conduct. I'm the last person who will stand up for a bounty hunter , but I've actually obeserved such behavior. A DW BC was passing thrue S-13 the other day and saw a group of outcasts and me. There was ... some form of role play .... thats more then I've seen from many bounty hunters , yet he did not atack the Outcast force. They desided to regroup and atack him. Only then the BC opened fire in self defence , wich is totaly in the lines of RP.

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[Zero755]

Attacking without reason is one of the operational guidelines that i proposed to the leaders of DW.
Basically it states that we will only initiate combat against a pirate that has either a bounty or is on our KOS listing. The KOS listing will be a precise list of those pirates that attack BH without cause or notification (i.e. the pvpwhores). Reasoning for this is simple, you attack a BH, expect them to return the favor in spades.
You dont want to be attacked, dont give us a reason.
There are also 4 other guidelines that are up for a vote that will change quite a bit of how we operate and here is the kicker, every one is well within the stated RP of the bounty hunters guild.

That is what I was trying to get at. But a much larger problem isnt the DW, its the BH capwhores that take their Battlecruiser on a Crusade through Alpha or Gamma or Minor. And honestly for that reason I hope the new ID limits regular BHG members to LF's through Gunboats. I dont really have a problem with the Core or the DW (Except for a time when they amassed a force of over 7 ships to attack 2 Harvesters, but that is another story) I have a problem with like ***DimSSS*** that fly around in their Battle ship with the sole intent to Pwnzorz people. That is what we need to fix.


EDIT
@Eternal
Actually I stated twice it was in Criminal RP to kill BHG on sight. Unless I misinterpreted my own writing (Which is plausible, this being Monday and all)

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[Raekur]

Well the hatred we have towards the Harvesters was WELL earned by the harvesters.
Attacking a faction leader who was in her fighter with 2 cruisers and a gunboat will get any faction on the number 1 spot of the list entitled "Grind into scrap metal then into dust". Add to that the fact that the harvester leader was the one that led the attack, that was just pounding the nail in a little further.

[Zero755]

True, but as you are well aware of it is Harveester RP to kill BHG on sight, with whatever force available. As we'd expect from you guys, which make my little grip unfounded, but hey, as I said its Monday and my logic isnt up to par yet. But you especially Raekur seem to go out of your way to quite frankly, be an ass. Hell I was setting up about 2 weeks ago in NY in a CSV and you went crazy on a killing spree even after I had another player PM you and tell you I was setting up. Did you really think I was gonna try and plunder and pillage all of NY in a CSV? Makes no sense whatsoever. Both Myself and Scorn have seen BH pilots on the way to 15 in crappy ships and they told they were setting up and we said ok cool, and let em go. So you got killed once, big deal, we get killed all the time. Brush it off and move on mate, it is after all a game. But this little side trek has gone on enough. If you want to continue it, make another thread or PM me, and Ill talk it out with you. There is no need for this game to make people hate each other.

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