' Wrote:I agree so much with Dreygon that it isn't funny.
By making everyone powerful...well, where do we fit the balance of power? And, moreover, the interesting and fun, full of opportunity Zoners, now they're apparently a combination of the LSF, the Order, and IC. I'll note that we already have such factions..its a little bit repetitive.
I very much agree to everything said here, and the post made by Dreygon.
I apologize in advance, because this post is probably going to sound a lot more rude than I intend. RL stuff just came to my attention and I will quite possibly end up inadvertently venting in my reply here. Sorry.
EDIT: Replace all instances of the word "structure" with the word "centralization" while I go through and fix it. It's closer to what I mean.
' Wrote:Um, the Zoners have the population, trust me on this. For further details, just get hold of me on skype or something. I don't want to get dragged into a protacted argument over it, though I will go into it hopefully somewhat briefly. In my personal view (which is shared by a number of people, including Igiss), Gran Canaria is a veritable power house and the bulk of the Zoner "nation's" fleet is stationed there, owned largely by the Zoner Council, but also individual ships owned by extremely wealthy freelancers and Zoners who have settled on Gran Canaria. The Zoners control the sole supplies of Deuterium, Iridium and the TAZ Zoners also have their own commodity (which will remain a surprise), as well as producing huge quantities of food and water. The Zoners also have the most extensive information network of any organisation in Sirius (even the Junkers don't have quite as good a network). They also have access to some of the most advanced technology in existence (Order/GMG/spy network).
Wait.
The Zoners, who are defined by their disgust for structure, are the people who have the most structured and in-depth intelligence network.
What?
The LSF's sole purpose is to have a really good intelligence network. By vanilla information, they have funding like you wouldn't believe (Liberty DOES NOT SKIMP when it comes to defense. By vanilla rumors they maintain a fleet big enough to contend with any two houses at once, and the LSF get similarly generous funding.) and they actually care. I don't know why the Zoners would dedicate that kind of time and resources to a structured intelligence system that massive, when they could, say, use that money to build legitimate bargaining chips like Juggernauts. I mean really, do you think the Corsairs could give a damn if the Zoners let on that they're starving? That might build sympathy for them and get traders to pay them out of pity if not fear.
If you count up each individual Zoner's contacts and their contacts, yes, the Zoners quite possibly have the biggest intelligence network. But getting the Zoner people as a whole to care enough to devote themselves to actually using all those contacts would be... well, it would be easier to just assassinate all the Outcast Dons. At the same time. With flowers and fairy dust.
Quote:Either way, the Zoners are powerful and probably have what amounts to at least an entire House military at their call, with the bulk of it stationed at Gran Canaria. The problem is that they have a lot of Freeports that need protecting, so in reality probably only Gran Canaria is untakeable by most conventional forces and organisations. If the Bretonians weren't in a war with Kusari, they would probably be able to send enough forces to take out Gran Canaria, but it would be very, very costly. All the other houses can't really reach it, and the Corsairs have nowhere near sufficient strength, especially not with the war against the Mollys, Bretonia, Outcasts, Hessians, Rheinland, Liberty, GMG etc. The Outcasts can't easily reach Gran Canaria and in any case probably don't much care about it.
You said something eerily similar about the Golden Chrysanthemums.
In Vanilla, both were like gnats to the giant war-machines of the Houses. They were, quite literally, the most underdog factions of all Sirius along with the Gaians, Bundschuh, Junkers, and Xenos. That's how revolutionary groups run; with very little cash, materials spread far too thin, and desperate to cling to their supply lines. Giving them a single capital ship would be a godsend.
Now they both have a frikkin planet, are completely self-sufficient, and the Zoners can apparently blow the living crap out of the Bretonian Armed Forces.
Um...
Pardon me, but WTF.
House Militaries are supposed to be the big guys in the iron boots. In Vanilla, they were; when the Rheinland Military shows up, all the characters are like "OH SHI-"
The Corsairs and Outcasts, both considered to be the pair of amazing criminal powerhouses, weren't dumb enough to launch a full-scale assault on any given house. Because they'd get owned. They still aren't; exhibit A, the Brotherhood's failed invasion of Rheinland. If anyone gets the kind of power to beat up the full force of a House Military, it should be one of them. Not a bunch of space-hermits that resent structure. That they can run a single Juggernaut is astounding; much less a fleet of them. I think that it's possible Digital Anvil didn't believe they actually had any Juggernauts, it was just a tall tale they told to keep people off their backs. Remember, all vanilla news (rumors not so much) comes from the political propaganda machines.
No, if the Bretonians decided to screw the war in the Taus and smash the Zoners, the Zoners had better hope the Corsairs are okay with losing all the ground they gained in Eta. Even then, the best case scenario for the Zoners is not pretty when the lines get drawn up. Especially if your analysis of the Corsairs was any indication of server community lore or actual server activity; have you been to Gamma? If we take server activity as a measure of military power, the Corsairs can give the Liberty Navy a run for their money. In terms of what the 4.84 infocards actually say, the Corsairs are pretty damn powerful, but not powerful enough to take care of a house (as the invasion of Rheinland proved); at least without pulling all their forces from the other fronts. The Corsairs are currently only waging war against the Red Hessians and the Outcasts. Of those, the Red Hessians are keeping them at bay with guerrilla tactics more than an actual military presence; the battlegrounds are steeply defensively inclined, and neither puts too much effort into the fighting there, because they would get a much better return putting forces elsewhere. So really, the Corsairs are fighting the Outcasts, and tying down the Red Hessians. In the news and infocards, they still are completely confidant in their ability to beat up the Freeport in Omicron Delta, even accounting for the Juggernaut they can't be sure exists. Their concern is more one of the Zoners' ability to sabotage the domes before they can be subdued; militarily the Zoners don't present a threat in the slightest.
It's the same idea with Gran Canaria; the Zoners brought the Corsairs in because they didn't have the forces to keep Bretonia or even the Mollies from expanding into the system.
I am really not happy with some of the stuff Igiss has encouraged, accidentally or purposefully. No, everyone and their dog is NOT really that powerful. By 4.84's infocards, the House Militaries should be the laughingstock of Sirius; in vanilla, every other piece of news (lawful or otherwise) is about unlawfuls getting trashed by the military or police. There ARE underdogs. There ARE people who get smashed in nearly every engagement they fight. Part of what drew me to Freelancer was that it maintained a realistic assessment of how politics move. There are not just the big powerhouses; there are all the little guys fighting for what they believe, no matter how pathetic their impact is. They know they don't have a chance, but they fight because it's what they feel they should do. If suddenly they have more than a chance, but can kick everyone's ass and they know it... it loses all that feeling.
Quote:And finally, the new bit I have inserted into the end of the Zoner/Zoner Guard ID: The Zoner ID does not make you immune to piracy; pirates may choose at their discretion whether to exempt you.
This I can get behind, so long as people realize that to pirate Zoners means Zoners won't like you, and you should adjust your repsheet accordingly. If your faction likes being friends with the Zoners you probably shouldn't be pirating them unless the Zoner Council is aware of the circumstances under which you will be doing it and are okay with still sheltering you. Jinx sold me on that bit the last time it came up.
TL;DR
There is no way that the Zoners should have that kind of military. I got the impression from SP that the Zoner Juggernauts could possibly be nothing but a tall tale, a bogeyman to keep the Zoners on the 'people to care about' list. The Zoners have connections individually, but they have no centralization (that's why they're Zoners) and cannot as a group put those connections to efficient use like the LSF can. They are liked by the small pirate groups, but all larger factions find them very annoying and wouldn't mind if they quietly disappeared; this is stopped by that one non-aggression treaty thing signed by the Houses after the 80-Years War and a lack of ideological ruses to get the people to support it. For the Corsairs, they don't trust their covert ops enough to try it immediately, and the Outcasts just don't care enough to waste people on it.
They aren't as special as people want them to be. They are the small-time white guy on the block where the gangs keep their headquarters; they are regarded as annoying but not worth the time or distracting backlash. If there was a way to do it without people setting up pickets and without wasting time, it would be really easy, and would be done.
Zoner technology isn't advanced enough to pull off such a feat, Richard. Perhaps they can build certain ships out of what little they can scrape together, but i hardly belive it to be possible for them to buy the army of androids and \ or robotics needed to fully automate their ships.
Yes, certain ships is what I meant. Automating an entire fleet would be very rare. (Not because of cost, since Zoners are exceptionally wealthy, but humans trusting robots.)
The question the becomes, whether Zoners can automate enough ships and fill the other ships with a human crew. I think they can.
Not to mention with what Kuraine said, it works out.
I agree with Dreygon that it is sad to see such factions become more militarised, but after the nomad threat, Das Wilde coming to be, the Harvesters, the Zoners have many threats. Their neutrality which got them through the early years is non-existent with these factions. Not to mention they have the influence and the money to build many things, so they could easily build a war fleet.
Perhaps they are just a bunch of groups coming together. But at least one bunch of groups would have a military mindset and build up defences. They may also realise that protecting other Zoner groups is in their interests since other groups may bring in a collective wealth which can be invested in further defences and other things which advance Zoner influence. (This paragraph refers to mini-groups which make up the collective Zoner faction.)
Sovereign has got it, too many factions are getting too powerful, planets and stuff that negates their cause. If Bundschuh had own planet to build their paradise they would stop fighting. Whats the fun in having the same resources as a house, some guard systems should remain one little outpost. And not every pirate gets it own ships or capships, it made sense for Gaians to have crap ships and such. They are hippies lol
Same with Zoners, they are the rejects of the Houses. Sure there might be traders and some more militarily inclined ones and different freeports have different needs and such, but there isnt one big organization or government structure there to build huge fleets or anything of that nature. Some freeports are barely hanging on.
If they have their finger in every pie someone isnt going to like that and easiest move would be taking out a freeport in house space.
Odds are they could build the odd capship or two as there have to be engineers and such among them. But fleets couldnt be supported.
RAHF.Lt.Karol.Olsav
fmr Lord Solar Admiral of the Helghast, fmr.RAHF-Olsav-[Cpt], fmr. {Helghast}(LSA-vhf)~Olsav, fmr.{Helghast}(LSA)~Olsav, aboard HCS. Kesselring
In case anyone forgot, the Zoners got their first station in 650 A.S. with literally no resources after the purchase other than the station. That they could have surpassed Liberty's industrial monster (who had a lead of 650 years, half a trillion people, three planets to the Zoners' none until very recently) is not just impossible, but something that even bad Japanese B-movies would think twice about before writing. Especially with the part where the entire idea of the Zoners is decentralization; they CAN'T have an economy of scale because it goes against the reason they're Zoners and not House citizens.
EDIT: Thank you Mal. I hope you didn't get the idea I wanted Zoners to be shoved into the 'Dromedary with 3 Eagles escort' (I wouldn't wish that on anyone)... but I'm glad you agree that the House-crushing fleet is bulldung.
We have apparently moved from the realm of postulating how globs of programmed pixels might behave in certain situations, to a discussion on our Creator's wisdom, and about how narrow our reality tunnel should be vis a vis the Zoners.
Perhaps the discussion cannot be held without considering the rights and obligations of both the pixel globs, which are forced to behave in certain ways, and the actual players whose creativity and contributions make our reality tunnels broader.
I am not privy to the Inner Circle which is busily working on our next Incarnaton. In sombunall ways, I believe the Zoners (as opposed to the zoners, who will still be mindless pixel globs), will be more restricted in future, and in sombunall ways I agree with those restrictions. Hopefully, this will alleviate the night sweats sombunall of our beloved "Bretonia Rules the Waves" proponents seem to be experiencing.
I will bare my Pineal here. You younger folk, turn away please.
I threw the Council of Zoners idea out there because I myself was embarrassed by the liberties being taken with the Zoner ID. I assumed a Registry, and a central "whinging" address, might help the situation by identifying those abusers. Never did I dream, nor desire, that it would become sort of defacto "government" let alone have some sort of legitimacy in the next version.
Thud, I'm a Discordian Ontological Anarchist.. why would I want that?
What I also do not want, is to be shoehorned into a Dromedary with 3 Eagle/Falcon escorts, thank you.
My tunnel is broad enough to include the maybe's:
Maybe the zoners have grown to some 140 Million souls...
Maybe they have felt the need to form a quasi-governmental Council to represent their "tribes"...
Maybe these tribes, with their mythological non-existent Juggernauts and technological prowess could field a fleet capable of defending one planet out of millions.
And maybe the horse will learn to sing, Nasrudin, maybe.
Edit: Oh, and of course the Brets know about Omega 49! They're not complete idiots.
I'd venture to guess they've even shopped there on occassion. Zoners.. gotta love em, eh?
ok... I got all the way from page one to about half way through page 5 of this rediculous debate. Whatever was said after half way through 5 is not reflected in what I have to say about this.
First, I'll start with the last thing I read. No other faction, not even the Junkers, can replace the services the Zoners provide. Zoners, alone, play both sides of the law and have become indispensable to both those with and without a badge. Junkers are neutral only among criminals, not criminals AND lawfuls. Anyone, no matter what their ties to law or crime, can dock at a zoner base because of their neutrality.
Houses don't harass Zoners for two reasons; they're not often seen in the spotlight of events because they prefer using a whisper over a shout. In this way they influence even house politics, even Bretonia's. The second reason being the aforementioned dock where their fleets can dock and repair and grab a little R&R in the bar.
Criminal organizations also enjoy being able to dock for the very same reasons, along with selling their goods, and having a neutral place to socialize and swap rumors with kindred spirits from other factions under the Freeport's enforced neutral zone.
WHY WOULD ANYONE, HOUSE OR CRIMINAL, BE STUPID ENOUGH TO INVADE THE ZONERS????? Y'all want to talk in character, let's really use our heads for once. Why does Switzerland enjoy the neutrality it does without much fear of invasion?? Get your gears rolling and apply the same techniques to the Zoners. That's right, money. And advantages to those financial structures that would disappear under any other organization because, quite frankly, others would muck it up. Everyone from both lawful and unlawful houses recognize the need for someone truly neutral like the Swiss and the Zoners.
Quite frankly, I think it's about time the Zoners were also considered a house as well. With how they influence the flow of money on both sides of the law, they have the financial means to support one.
The Corsairs, BHG, Outcasts, and Liberty would all very much like to have control of the nearby Freeports so that the other guys in the list don't use them.
The Corsairs would also love to have those biodomes.
The lawfuls really hate the Zoners if you read the news, they just don't kill them... barely. One of the news items in vanilla had Liberty ready to fling part of the fleet at one of the Freeports and dismantle it for harboring criminals. Seriously. The lawfuls do not care for the Zoners.
The small time unlawfuls love them, yes. But the big guys find them annoying.
Geez, what a concept. We are the bloody Illuminati.
(Insert eldritch laugh here.)
Personally, I plan to kick back and see what the future brings.
After all.. (drumroll..) it is called Discovery!!
23's, and to all a Good Night!
Mal
Edit: Dang Sovereign, you spoiled my exit.
"Harboring fugitives"..? My good man, Liberty has more than enough criminals coming out of the woodwork. They hardly need to worry about a few fugitives.
And, if you're still reading the vanilla news, I beseech you, grow a Pineal!