do we need an official definition of zoners of today ( that is - an up to date zoner description of disco ) ... unless we take Kuraines description as official as it is..
or can we live with the very very different and sometimes opposing definitions. ... which means that players act totally IN roleplay for some and totally OUT of roleplay for others.
the question is - would such a definition be beneficial for the community? - in 4.85 obviously, cause things change for that version a lot.
My opinion is that the Zoners should have atleast another planet under development \ terraforming in 4.85 due to the "threat" to Gran Canaria and other resons such as... well, it's a whole new planet! Heh.
' Wrote:do we need an official definition of zoners of today ( that is - an up to date zoner description of disco ) ... unless we take Kuraines description as official as it is..
the question is - would such a definition be beneficial for the community? - in 4.85 obviously, cause things change for that version a lot.
I would say A: yes we do need an official definition of zoners, or rather, that it would be very helpful and nice. We should have an official, based on community decisions, definition of every faction. B: Kuriane's definition should not be taken as official, because it seems to be out of line with the majority of posters here. Out of line with the impressions that most people who care enough to write out their impressions. I might go so far as to call Kuriane the man with no pants.
I'd like to add in anotherr point to Kuraine's assessment that they have the military power of a House...
They whole point is that they aren't like a House.
However, for some reason, as Sovereign points out, all of the small factions seem to have gained uber power instead of being lowly underdogs. The Rogues have pointless shipyards and Destroyers. The Hackers have battleships, instead of extreme intel. The Golden Chrysanthemums are a military power. Bounty Hunters become organised enough to run fleets, instead of impromptu posses.
It doesn't make sense. The four militaries should be the most powerful by far, with the GMG, the Outcasts, Corsairs and Hessians close behind. The smaller factions shouldn't be focussing on brute force, but on struggling to get by. In vanilla, the vast majority of factions were in dire straits.
Besides, even if the Zoners, have a ridiculous movement of 140 million people (lolwut), that still doesn't compare to planetary cities. A drop in the ocean.
Nomadic individuals who take use of what resources they can find in order to secure their independence from the other houses \ factions in Sirius would be my definition of the Zoners. -shrug-
maybe the only official zoner faction [TAZ] can - if they like - think of a definition. ( in the end, its the playerfaction making up their definition ... not the others that deal with them... or at least .. .thats how things are / have been done )
so maybe Mal wants to write something up - or tell someone to write something up.
edit: or it could be done by the council of zoners. -
' Wrote:They whole point is that they aren't like a House.
would people who fled from organized society, leave just to start an organized society? lends more to the oxymoronic to me.
even if some did, there could only be so many in power leaving the rest to follow....which i don't think they would want to follow, seeing as that's why they left the houses to begin with.
A short foreword: I am not a native english speaker and the following text will contain many mistakes. I hope it will not be a severe pain to read it. Please forgive this humble person.
I see the Zoners as an powerfull movement.
Many here stated that the Zoners would not organise themselves because it was their dislike for an organised community that made them leave the houses.
Well, I can not second that. The reasons for people to leave the, for the most part oppressive, houses are manifold. There may be the arnarchic tendencies, as shown in the TAZ and there may be the few Zoners that just want to be left alone. But as I see it, the most Zoners left their homes because their life was miserable there or their government oppressive. Take the miners of Dresden for example. Daumann makes their lifes miserable, some of the miners make the best of it and stay there. Some ohters rebell against the oppression and join with the Red Hessians. But I would bet there are also enough People who are unhappy but do not want to kill and pirate...and follow the thought that if Rheinland allows Daumann to destroy their lifes, than Rheinland might not be the right home for them. To such People, an "utopian" movement like the Zoners, peacefull and free, has great appeal.
The Zoner movement was born because people were unhappy about the houses, not because they were anarchic (Well...excluding the TAZ).
Many of you stated that the Zoners are not organised and are composed of many small groups. Well...that is true...or...was true. I do think there are more reasons for the collective tag of the Zoners, even in Vanilla. In the beginning of the Zoner movement, they sure were many small groups or individuals that independently decided to leave the houses and build up a new life in the Borderworlds. But many years and decades have passed since than and as you all stated, the Borderworlds are dangerous and threatening. These many independent groups eventually realised that they shared widely the same goals and ideals and that their lives would be a lot safer if they would band together. You are right, the powers of sirius are looking greedily upon the things, the Zoners created. The different zoner-groups need each other, to supply themselves, to watch each others back, to work to the benefit of the whole movement.
Therefore, I do think that the Zoners banded together under one Flag, the collective Zoner movement. The Zoner Council is actually a very good example for a Leadership of such an movement. Every Zoner stays a free being and can mostly do what he wants. Just in very important matters, mostly concerning the whole Zoner movement, the Zoners meet in the Council and decide about the subject. A true democratic Council, where every Zoner has equal rights and an equal voice.
Many of you said, that the Zoners need no Warships. Well, I disagree. It was stated many times in this thread, that there are many threats to the Zoners. Many factions throw a greedy eye on the Freeports in their neighborhood and in the case of bretonia, even the only planet that the Zoners call their own, is in danger. Yes, the Zoners use soft power and politics, but I do not take them for dumb. Of course they realise the risks and that one day, these soft power may fail and they get attacked by opporturnistic forces. On that day they will need their own fleet, to protect their homes and their lifes.
The Zoners are masters of technology and space travel. The Zoners have neutral status to the most factions. The Zoners have access to rare ressources and even a few monopols. The Zoners may not be as heavy organised as the houses, but they work together, I am sure of that, so....they really fullfill all the premises for a very successfull trading empire.
So, they have the money, they have the technology and the houses are getting more oppressive day by day, so I see the Zoner population increasing too.
That said, I also believe that the Zoners are not equal to a house or even near it, they did not have enough time and have not enough population. But they are getting stronger every day.
@ Jinx: Not on your life, sister. Asking a Discordian to define something is like trying to stick a wet noodle...
...well, you get the picture.
The TAZ are Discordians first, Ontological Anarchists second, and Zoners dead last by default.
As to the Council drafting your "definition", it would be almost as amusing an attempt as this little "gedankenexperiment" has turned into. Wellmeaning, but futile in extremis. I would be more apt to consult the I Ching for a definition.
@ Blunt. Don't blame Kuraine for those population numbers. As I understand it they come from a Higher Power. If you feel they are wrong, I suggest you start praying.
Once again, I humbly suggest that we all kick back and see what the future brings. At that time I and my stalwarts will decide whether it behooves us to "behave like Zoners" or to "walk like an Egyptian".
Perhaps Ile de France Shipping is hiring enterprising but autonomous types...
@ Richter. I hereby defer to and recommend your "definition", just because it will niggle a few naysayers until we find out what the Gods have in store.
somehow i predicted that reaction from mal, hence the recent edit about the council - but i agree that such an attempt would be mostly futile - and as such... a waste of time. ( mind, a humorous maybe - and whats the problem with that then:))
on the other hand - the zoners as a loose faction work pretty well at the moment. - except for a few that shout "powertraders" the zoners enjoy quite a good rep right now - we do have the heavy firepower - but almost no one with a happy trigger finger there.
we don t restrict other players but gladly still don t suffer the same problems other factions have. it even appears that the zoners is one of the few factions that enjoy a great popularity without causing too many problems.
4.85 will bring some change - and i do expect the zoners to change with the expansion, too - but not much from what the zoners are about ( no matter if they are powerful or petty )
so - i m quite happy that so many people posted their opinions and that it was pretty much civil all through.