' Wrote:You'll just have to take getting raped by BRs in a bomber every now and then, try to stay at standoff range, or get a cap with BRs of your own.
Get a cap with BRs of my own.. That is exactly what I'm stating the problem will become. Cruisers will be the only ship ever used because they can kill fighters, bombers, gunboats, and other cruisers. Only thing that can kill it now is a battleship.. Battleship shows up, destroyer just thrusts out of its range. No threat from any ship except another cruiser. And again; Why should we sacrifice two of the most important ship classes, those this game was built around (fighters), just so the cruiser can hit a gunboat with battlerazors, when its fully capable of killing it without them?
' Wrote:It isn't all that easy to hit a manuvering bomber with a BR (I know quite well this). In this case, you were probably up against a skilled marksman so nerfing the hardware is the wrong way to go.
It is all that easy to hit a maneuvering bomber with a BR. At least now it is, now that they fire at a speed of 800m/s. And as Tenacity said.. Takes only 1/8th of a BC's energy bar.. It can fire EIGHT of them at a time. Or chainfire two, getting one shot off every 5 seconds.. One of those BRs WILL hit its target. Cruisers will get something around 1/5-1/6th of the bar per BR shot.. Thats still quite a bit, and plenty to kill a fighter/bomber. And the pilot was someone I've fought in the past. It had nothing to do with his skill at aiming, it had to do with the speed of the battlerazors.
And @ Tenacity;
Takes 1/8th of a Battlecruisers energy bar.. Thats 8 at a time.. And this is not spam? I didn't even use the word spam, all I said was repeated firing. Is 8 consecutive shots not repeated? And with the refire time, a BC could probably fire one indefinitely, with the occasionally gun shots to drop a fighter/bomber shield. Cruisers won't be able to fire quite as often, but still plenty, and they turn faster.
And you use the Mini-razor as an example of being used to hit smaller ships.. Your own example proves my point. Razors are meant to be used against same-class ships. Fighters/bombers use mini-razors on other fighters/bombers. Both the Battle Razor and Mortar are anti-cap weapons. Battlerazors do less damage, but also use less energy, mortars do a lot more damage, but use a ton of energy. Its a choice matter. Battlerazors are NOT meant to be used on smaller ships. And even if they were, not so far that a cruiser can hit a fighter. Furthermore, killing a gunboat; Is that not what primary turrets are for? And if you think a cruiser has a hard time hitting a gunboat/gunship, how about you bring a GB up to Hokkaido and I'll teach you first hand just how easily a cruiser can demolish a GB. They aren't that much faster, and their guns have a much shorter range than a cruiser.. So the only way for the GB to hit the cruiser is to get close, where the Battlerazor can hit it, regardless of the speed. Therefor, such a gigantic speed is unnecessary, for 200-300m/s would work perfectly fine for hitting GBs, while also stopping cruisers from having spectacular anti-fighter weaponry. Anti-fighter weaponry that kills instantly, fires quickly, and is so large that aiming isn't a problem (look at the size of the BR firing effect.. Hitting your target is not difficult in the least).
And you say it fires less often than a Supernova? Obviously you don't use a bomber often, for it is far longer than 10 seconds between Supernova shots. It takes at least 20 seconds to recharge the energy enough for a second shot, if not more.
Considering that mjolnir's capship weapons post when 4.85 was originally released specifically stated that battleship razors were meant to snipe bombers, and that cruiser razors were meant to be used against smaller gunboats/gunships, I really dont see the point of this argument.
Guess I could be like every other idjit on these forums, plug my ears, and yell "GET ESCORTS LOLOLOLOLOL!!!" over and over again.
Quote: And @ Tenacity;
Takes 1/8th of a Battlecruisers energy bar.. Thats 8 at a time.. And this is not spam? I didn't even use the word spam, all I said was repeated firing. Is 8 consecutive shots not repeated? And with the refire time, a BC could probably fire one indefinitely, with the occasionally gun shots to drop a fighter/bomber shield. Cruisers won't be able to fire quite as often, but still plenty, and they turn faster.
i can fire my battle razer on my dragon gunboat repeattedly with out having problems with energy
EDIT: i hope you all enjoyed having me waste my 300th post on this....
' Wrote:<span style="font-family:Century Gothic">Violence is Golden</span>
That's not taking into account all of the other factors that go into making the cool-looking white spinny ball thingy hit something. You have to consider the individual piloting the ship, mutual velocities, etc.
That said...
After some careful <strike>bribery on Dab's part</strike> testing though, I have determined that the projectile speed on the Razor could be turned down a bit, with a possible reduction in energy consumption.
They are supposed to be used as hull breachers against capital ships. My advice would be either reduce their speed and energy consumption (making them a worthwhile alternative compared to the mortar and primary turrets), Or increase the projectile speed of the Supernova cannon to comprable levels.
Or both.
That said,
Quote:Do you not see my epic plan, my dear?
If and when Dab's arguement here fails, the capwhore legions armed with 10+ BRs will begin to roam. For a time, it will be a dark era for Bombers, but soon the people will see that BRs need to be nerfed to hell and back, as they can't go 5 minuites without being roflomgpwned
The public outcry will be so shrill and intense, that the BR will be torn asunder and nerfed to crap speed but ~ amounts of damage and low energy consumption, effectively D:ing their usability against small ships.
As it stands, I think the BR's should have been left how they were, but had a damage buff instead of a speed buff. They could do their job fine as they were in 4.84, but just a bit crap at it in the damage department.
Quote:They are supposed to be used as hull breachers against capital ships.
They're supposed to be used against -smaller- capital ships.
Right now there is no reason whatsoever to use battle razors against cruisers or up if you've got a light mortar equipped.
Battle razor does 35,000 damage for 350,000 energy, with a 0.1 refire rate. That's an efficiency of 0.1 damage per energy and 3,500 damage per second with constant fire.
Light mortar does 150,000 damage for 1,000,000 energy, with a 0.25 refire rate. That's an efficiency of 0.15 damage per energy and 37,500 damage per second with constant fire. Even a small cruiser can fairly easily fire a light mortar every 5-10 seconds without energy issues.
Razors are by no means meant to be used against same-class ships, they're inefficient and dont do enough damage for that purpose. They're meant to be used against small ships which are too fast for mortars to hit - those being gunboats, gunships, and even bombers - and in some cases smaller destroyers like the kusari dessie which are otherwise difficult to hit with light mortars.
If a bomber pilot really wants to argue, he should argue about getting hit by cruiser primaries which do 1000-1500 damage per shot per turret, use so little energy that you can actually regen while firing 5-10 turrets constantly, and have 1000m/s speed with a longer range than razors have.
The only difference here is the shock effect of getting killed in a single hit instead of getting killed with multiple hits in a short timeframe. In fact, it isnt even possible to one shot an armored bomber with a cruiser razor - it does 35k damage, most bombers have 19+k armor before armor upgrades, and 50+k armor with a mk8 fighter armor upgrade.
' Wrote:Me, I'm just curious as to why the GB Battle Razor doesn't have this speed.
It might be lag, it might be poor aim on my part, but I just can't hit fighters with the GB version.
because gunboats have anti-fighter/bomber missiles to deal with those ships, gunboat razors are designed as their version of the mortarght mortar - they're anti-cap, as the only heavy hitting weapons available to gunboats.
' Wrote:Considering that mjolnir's capship weapons post when 4.85 was originally released specifically stated that battleship razors were meant to snipe bombers, and that cruiser razors were meant to be used against smaller gunboats/gunships, I really dont see the point of this argument.
Guess I could be like every other idjit on these forums, plug my ears, and yell "GET ESCORTS LOLOLOLOLOL!!!" over and over again.
Note; BATTLESHIP razors were meant to snipe bombers. Not cruiser battlerazors. Cruiser battle razors may be meant to hit gunboats/gunships, but certainly NOT fighters/bombers. Anything fired by a cruiser that can hit a fighter/bomber should not insta-kill it. And if a GB is within 800m, which is its weapon range and has to be there to hit the cruiser, the battlerazor could hit it if the BR had a speed of 300m, or 400m max.
Also, please answer this, for you have not done so yet;
What is wrong with using Primary turrets against a GB?
Lastly; Whats wrong with escorts? Do you ever look at NPC cap patrols? Always escorted.. Always. I don't see why people on this server can't do the same. Heck, I had an escort of two fighters and two bombers for a single Border Worlds Transport.. So why can't a destroyer get 1-2 fighters to protect it? With the new armor and shield boosts for capships, they can survive against bombers long enough for those fighters to actually be useful. Not to mention that the cruiser's standard turrets can hit bombers and fighters as well.. We do NOT need a super weapon in the form of a Battlerazor. Reduce its speed to 350m/s and that'd fix everyone, while still retaining the ability to hit gunboats. Also, may I add, BRs and Mortars aren't meant to be able to hit their target 10 times out of 10. Aim is supposed to factor into it.. With 800m/s, there is no need to aim, you just point towards the target and hit it. There is no judging of how far ahead of the target you should aim, or anticipating their turns, because if you just aim right at the red target, it'll hit every time. Why should it be so easy? And why should it be so fast as to hit bombers and fighters at a range that should give them plenty of time to dodge it?
So again, I ask you; Is the ability to utterly destroy a GB with yet another, third, type of weapon, really worth the ruining of two of the most basic ship classes in this mod? Fighters and bombers? Because if so, I might as well just go grab a cruiser now and fly around with it. Not to mention having to leave the factions where the biggest ship allowed is a gunboat.. What do we tell those players? Get a cruiser of your own? What do we tell the GB pilots when the fighters and bombers are gone, and they have no chance against a cruiser? Get a cruiser of your own? Of course, at that point, half the factions are gone, since many can't use anything bigger than a gunboat.. The Cr and GB battlerazor speed needs a decrease. At the very least to 400m/s, 350m/s being better.
Our goal has been to create balance between all the ship classes in this mod.. Towards this end, we have yet to succeed.
EDIT: @Camtheman; This is purely for cruiser BRs, not battleship ones. Everything else I'd like to say to you here wouldn't be quite appropriate, so I'll just end there.
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